The CharterNess That is Coming to Public Education — A CharterFolk Chat with Shannon Hodge

Jed Wallace 0:01

Shannon Hodge, welcome to CharterFolk Chat.

Shannon Hodge 0:04

Thanks so much, Jed. Great to be here.

Jed Wallace 0:06

I mean, we were just saying before we got started here, it's ridiculous. We haven't had that much time to talk with each other. This is gonna be our biggest chunk of time together in more in like a year or something like that. Yes

Shannon Hodge 0:15

yes.

Jed Wallace 0:15

excited to see you and thank you for making time and I know you're in this really exciting moment in a transition. So amid all of that to take some time with us doubly appreciative.

Shannon Hodge 0:26

Happy to do it.

Jed Wallace 0:27

Do you mind, I mean, a lot of people, like, you know, the DC folk a lot of you know, folk are gonna know all about you. But would you mind just like telling your own story for those that haven't had a chance to meet you in the past? And I also know you. And I know you default toward excessive modesty. So if you could like, avoid that for me, you know, I mean, you have one of these most amazing stories. You know, it's just and the things that you've done, the education that you've had, the different organizations you've worked within. Please don't be modest and let our world have a little appreciation for who Shannon Hodge is.

Shannon Hodge 1:08

I definitely appreciate that, Jed. I'll try my best to live up to your ask. So I think what I'm hearing is like give the mid length version of my story. So I will give the mid length, not the quick version. I will say like I have been obsessed with education ever since college. I was an undergrad at Harvard. I was doing the undergraduate teacher education program. I did my student teaching in the Boston Public schools and was just like amazed by the opportunity. This was at the era right before no Child left Behind. So standardized. Standard space reform in Massachusetts had a chance to write a senior thesis on standard space reform. And just really. Found my niche in that work. And what I decided to do was actually to continue going to school to learn more about the work. I was certified to teach, but felt like I needed a little bit more. And so I became a guidance counselor and worked as a guidance counselor in traditional public schools in Indiana for about two and a half years. Okay. And that is when no child left behind hit. During that time, I was the director of testing for the small school district in which I worked, and all of what was happening with standardized testing was hitting us. And before it hit other parts of the country, because at that point, Indiana did its state testing in the fall. And so we came across kind of the implementation of No child Behind very early. And here I was this young person in charge of testing for a seven school district. And I had all these questions about, is this right? Where did this come from? How did we get here? And I actually left that work to go to grad school to study policy. And in the middle of that program decided to go to law school. So it all makes sense now at that point, I'm not sure it made sense to anyone but me but it was about really understanding the systems in which I was working, understanding how to advocate for students and the experience that they were having in schools. And so after law school, I worked, I clerked for a couple of years in federal courts and then came to DC and about twenty thirteen. I had the great fortune to be an attorney at Hogan Lovells which is one of the few big law firms that has a K 12 education practice. And so I was able to get right back into what I cared most about, which was education. And one of my first major assignments working at Hogan Lovells was to support one of the council members of the DC Council who was trying to get some education reform through. Huh. And I got a crash course in understanding DC through his eyes and through the eyes of someone who was trying to improve public education. And what I told people at the time was, at that point, I think I had lived in maybe like nine cities in 15 years, and DC had by far the most complicated education system I had ever been a part of. Just all, you know, it was. So intricate and so complicated, and I thought, if it takes me and all these degrees to understand what's going on in this space, what would it, what must it be like for people navigating it? But even at that point, speaking before the council helping shape these policies it was still a little bit distant for me. Like I can, I can do this. But now I'll go back to my law firm work, regular law firm work. My next major project was representing the court appointed receiver of a public charter school. Mm. Okay. And I went from a first year associate. To being thrown into school management. When I had left traditional public schools in Indiana, there's no way in the world I would've ever thought that I would be back in kind of school management work. Like I just, that just wasn't a thing at all that I thought that I would be doing. But fast forward and at the end of that particular project, I left my law firm. I became the last executive director of that charter school which my mom says, of course you would leave your law firm to go to a school to run a school that's closing. And that's how I truly got into charter schools in DC. From there I was the last executive director of that school helping it shut down. I had the great fortune to have a charter application along with the team of us, had a charter application approved to open up a school serving some of the most vulnerable students in DC and those are students who were overage and under credited, who had attendance and truancy issues and who had a behavior and emotional disabilities. And we opened up a school to serve them in particular in DC. And I was the executive director of that school for five years. Before I got called to dip my toe a little bit more into some of the advocacy work I had been doing all along. And I left that school to be the founding executive director of the DC Charter School Alliance, which is where I met you.

Jed Wallace 5:34

That's right. That's right.

Shannon Hodge 5:36

and had the great fortune to get that organization launched to be a part of a team that really brought together 100% of DC's public charter schools in support and advocacy work. And really being able to be an advocate for this sector was a tremendous opportunity. And after a couple of years of doing that work, I applied for this position at KIPP DC to be its president. And people ask like, why did you leave the DC Alliance? And I think I had done what I could do. I had done 90, 95% of what I could do, which was bring together all of the charter leaders to set some direction for the organization. And there was this opportunity to join KIPP DC and continue doing some of the work that I was good at around systems and structures and strategy, and to do that at a scale that I hadn't done it before. And so for about a little over three years, I was president of KIPP DC and led a portfolio of. The central office function, central business functions of the organization and really had a chance to learn KIPP DC, in and out and have the great fortune approximately a month ago to be to move into the CEO position. So that is my mid length version of my story. Jed, I hope that lives up to your expectations.

Jed Wallace 6:49

I love it. Well, I need live up to Wallace expectations you know. Great way to phrase it, but as ever, you knocked it outta the park. So thank you for that. Thank you. Thank you. And look, I won't, I won't I hopefully make you blush too much but the part of the, of your career that I'm most familiar with is that period at during the DC Alliance and. I think that for a long time we really had some great advocates in DC, Ramona Edlin, you know, who we both, you know, grew to love and have as our mentor amazing Robert Cane and everything that was done at focus, all cool stuff. But the structure wasn't optimal. It was not optimal. And people knew it wasn't optimal for a long time. And the question was, could we ever bring those two organizations together? And there was so much. Complexity, you know, about all of that. We needed a leader who was very special and you know, very tone right. In all sorts of different ways. You did an incredible job. Thank you. You got that organization going. You also did an amazing job of recruiting. Ari just follow you in. So everyone should be aware that in addition to at Kingsman you know, at KIPP, at the things before charters, you know, you made extraordinary contributions, but also in a place that's of particular importance to me. You may, and I know how hard it is. I know how hard it is. And also you were gracious with me because I think, you know, whatever you took my suggestions. Most of the time. And then there are other times like that Wallace dude is unhinged and I'm ignoring that altogether. So

Shannon Hodge 8:27

well maybe a little bit yes.

Jed Wallace 8:31

But tell me, I mean, I wanna jump into like the transition story right now. But before we do that, can you summarize what the mix of your experiences leads you to think about the charter school world and perhaps, you know, the KIPP place. Differently than maybe if you hadn't had that full range of experiences. How does that all add up to positioning you to do something now at KIPP DC that perhaps another leader might not be so well prepared to do?

Shannon Hodge 9:02

The, with this position comes a tremendous amount of responsibility, and I think anyone who would stepping into any CEO seat understands that and knows that. I think my experiences from the DC Charter School Alliance from being on the opposite end of size and scale. And student population when I was at Kingsman in the school before it. I have such a robust and deep understanding of the sector in DC What's at stake? The role that KIPP DC in particular as the largest charter LEA plays in it. The role that KIPP DC is a 25 year institution plays in it. And so that responsibility is not just to the families and students of KIPP DC, it's to the entire city and to the entire sector. And I know that, and I feel that and I understand that. And so part of the way that I lead is helping other people around me also understand that. So when I joined KIPP DC, they had an amazing kind of lunch and learn. Opportunity for our central office staff to just kind of whether it's learning about something that their teammate is working on or a colleague is working on. Or just kind of what's happening out in the world. And I asked, hey, can I do one on the education landscape? Because one thing that I know from my work in charter advocacy is that people don't necessarily understand how DC works, right? Taking, you know, taking me back 13 years to when I first came to DC and started working at the law firm in some of this work, it's complicated and for folks inside the sector to understand how complicated it is. How important charters are to understand what it means to be a charter, to understand the bargains that charters have entered into, to understand how we have to hold cities re accountable for holding up their end of the bargain, just like they hold us accountable for holding up our end. I've been doing lunch and learns with our central office. Staff now for three years. And I love them because I can see that people understand the things that I'm saying. I have my biggest slide has just a few words and I think, I think most of the people who come to my lunch and learns now know that the main thing they have to understand is that charter schools are public schools. and just that the work that I feel is so important. For us all to do in the sector to make sure that our neighbors know our family members, know our friends, know what's at stake, and that charter schools are public schools in addition to all the other things that are on my plate at KIPP DC, I think that's an integral part of it.

Well, this tees up another, a follow up question. One that Howard Fuller, I've. Essentially promised Howard Fuller. There were are certain questions I'm gonna ask almost everybody I come into contact with. But I'm gonna save that for the, for the end. 'cause they could be a really, like a nice bookend. It's really how are we having the conversations with our people and what conversations are working well. He is of the opinion that our newcomers. Are losing a sense of what we're all about. And it's because we're not consciously engaging them, we're kind of taking it for granted. So I take my promise to Howard. Seriously. I'm coming back to it at the end. Yeah, absolutely. For now. Can you talk a little bit about another challenge area? In my opinion, in the charter school world, which is succession. And we've had all of these amazing charter school organizations get started and some have done. Really an admirable job, sometimes an excellent job in bringing in the next generation of leadership and they're, you know, they're knocking it outta the park. There are many, in my view, more than I think we would want and more than I think is necessary are having. More struggles. And a part of it, I think is kind of a lack of proactivity. Hey, we don't really have our plans together. And so transitions happen in an almost ad hoc fashion. It certainly looks as though your transition into KIPP. Is not of that kind. It looks as about as intentional and well staged as anything that I've seen. At the same time, I do know what makes things challenging is when you're following in a legend. In your case, you're following in two legends. You're following in Allison and you're following in Susan, right? So can you talk about these two things as they relate to transition? How do we do it successfully, generally, and then if you're in a situation where you are following in a legend, how do you do it you know, a little bit differently than if that weren't the case.

Yeah, absolutely. And I will say that I, my orientation ha, I've always been more focused on organizations, what's best for the organization. Un unfortunately, what's best for Shannon isn't top of mind for me. And so I often go into an organization thinking that. I need to make sure that there's a plan in place for if and when I leave. I'm never planning to go in and stay forever. Right. Because I think that organizations need new blood. They need new energy, they need someone who has a different perspective. I also know myself very well and know that I'm not the kind of leader who is going to spend 30 years in an organization. I'm gonna go in with a clear sense of what it is that I can bring to the table, what I can do, and I, my. I definitely need to leave the organization better than I found it and that often means making sure that there's someone in place behind me to take over whether the board chooses to go in a different direction or not. I believe it's my obligation to my organizations to make sure that someone's there. So, both of the transitions that I've done in this, in the sector before, from Kingsman to the Alliance and from the Alliance to KIPP. I had a successor in mind. and both of those people had been in the organizations with me at Kingsman. It was kenisha Kelly, who was one of my co-founders, and at the DC Alliance, it was Ariel Johnson, who I recruited to be my chief of staff and told her when I recruited her, I will be leaving at some point. And so there was always the understanding that you are up next. You are, you are my person. I'm going to lead this organization with you as my number two, with the expectation that I'm leaving at some point. And that level of transparency, that level of intentionality for me is important when I sit in the, in the number one seat. And when I joined KIPP DC, that was a part of the conversation from when I joined. No obligations, no contracts, but that was a part of the conversation. And I think successful succession planning requires a level of transparency, a level of vulnerability, a level of humility, and a level of honesty that you have to take some risk to be able to do that well. the other thing I will say is that Susan Scheffler was amazing throughout that this entire process the. Her and the board's willingness to have those conversations very early on about what they wanted, what they were thinking. What would be best for KIPP DC? So impressive for me coming in. One thing that people don't know is that Susan and I shared an office for three years. Oh. So when I joined KIPP DC as president, I not only inherited wow. Allison's role title. That's interesting. I also inherited Allison's desk in the shared executive office, and so. As an only child and extreme introvert. I will say that sharing the office probably for the first time since I was maybe a law clerk however many years earlier, was intense. And at the same time, it was the best learning experience that I could have because I got to see firsthand how Susan interacted with people. I got to hear firsthand her stories of 20 plus years of leading KIPP DC. I had a chance to process and pro and problem solve and troubleshoot with her. For three years in a shared space. And like that wasn't a part of a succession plan on paper, but that is a part of the succession plan that we lived out. I, people have told us, like, you all should be writing a book about how you navigated this. Because I think if you, if people were to have known from the beginning that we were talking about and thinking about succession, they would've named all the ways that it would go wrong. And none of those things came to fruition. She was amazing. The board was amazing and continued to be amazing. She and I had dinner last night and had a great conversation and just lots of amazing wisdom and advice, but it just required a level of vulnerability I think, on both of our parts and recognition that what was ultimately most important was what was best for KIPP DC and the students and families we serve. And the smooth transition is what was most important.

That's great. I am reminded of. My time at high Tech high and I was the only one that had an adjacent wall to larry Rosen stock's office. His was right next to mine. The wall was so thin now, it wasn't really, it really wasn't a succession you know oriented thing, but. And also I'm not much of an eavesdropper. I had enough to do to keep myself busy. Yeah. But also just that proximity, that regular proximity I think it gave me a chance to just absorb a lot more rosy, you know, rosen stuckness than would've been the case otherwise. And that's turned out to be of immense value to me while I continue to serve at heights High in all sorts of other places as well. That intimacy of connection to fellow leaders I think is key and sounds like it's a really impart important part of what your transition has been right. Now. Can you talk to me a little bit about, okay, so this transition into, to KIPP if there's any role in the country that is. Like being the, you know, the beta fish in the, in the, in the glass fish bowl or whatever. There's national, you know, national KIPP changes. Its, you know, slogan and, you know, it might be the most talked about thing in education reform for the next, you know, three months. And it's, and I think what happens in a lot of different cities, you know, KIPP is that in its city, but I also feel like there's. Something about just KIPP DC that, you know, in the kip Pantheons your guys' visibility is about as high as any that I'm aware of. I also know that your guys' academic performance has been under scrutiny. I know that. The performance of KIPP DC at least, you know, using those metrics that you were well familiar with during the NCLB were kind of like out of this world. And I think it's not the same now. And I just wonder how you think about it being that way right now. I'm not, I'm making no value judges. I'm not saying, oh, these test scores are the only way it's a met. I just, I'm just, but it's different now than if you had made this transition, say. Six, eight years ago or something like that. How do you how do you think about that and how does it affect what you're thinking about in your early months of leadership in the new role?

I think what's interesting is that the previous two roles I had prepared me for this moment. So as the one of the co-founders of Kingsman Academy we came into an environment where people were expecting us to fail. The students that we served were students that. Just to be transparent and frank. People didn't want to serve and thought couldn't be served. When we went, when we started the DC Charter School Alliance, there was a question to your point earlier, about whether or not you could even bring these two organizations together. Mm. I don't do easy or investing to me. A challenge is great. A challenge that actually serves students and families is amazing. So this, I see, yes, there's a, there's a fishbowl but it is the purpose of being there is to improve opportunities for students and families who need it. And that for me is the most tremendous motivation. And in the moments where there is, let's call it noise, in the moments where there are criticisms and critique, what centers me and grounds me is what our students and families need, want, deserve, or advocating for from us. And to a certain extent, I have to decide what is actually a signal. Of what's important to us. What is a signal that we're off track or that we're on track? What is a signal of an opportunity that we can't miss or a challenge that we need to focus on versus what is noise intended to distract? And I would say one of my superpowers. Is being able to compartmentalize and focus. And for me there is a lot of noise that comes with being in the fishbowl. Which is not to say noise, that it's not accurate or not important or not relevant, but it's not what I need to hear and understand in order to deliver for students and families. And so I will take in all kinds of information. I will, you know. Put it in its proper box and pull it out when I need it. But for me it's really understanding what our students and families need and want from us today and what they will need and want from us in the future. And, you know, we can, we, you've mentioned academic performance that is a clear signal to us. It might not look the way that other people are talking about it. The metrics that matter for us and for me may not be the ones that appear you know, wherever else they may appear. We have to be very clear internally on how we are defining student success. And anything that's other than that has to be noise for us in order to deliver on how we define it. Because there's so, there's so many opportunities to be distracted in this work that if we don't have the focus to plan, to design, to execute, to align, to progress, monitor, to continuously improve. If we every week change the thing that we're focusing on, right? If we change how we define success, we will never get to any definition of success. And so that I think is what is keeping me focused these days. And that's kind of what I'm, you know, as the information comes in, as the feedback and the noise surrounds me in the fishbowl. Centering what our students and families need is what's most important to me.

How do you, how crisp do you think tip DC is right now in terms of what those metrics are? Or is it, is it that they're giving space for you coming into this role to have some conversations with people and get crisper? How does this, how does this stand right now?

I think it's the latter for a couple of reasons. One, the shift for me from president to CEO is a tremendous shift. So, as president, my work focused on the central business functions of the organization and some strategy. The work on the academic and school side is an opportunity for me to understand more deeply what's happening there. To understand key levers, to understand root causes, and at, you know, less than a month into the job. I don't wanna come out and say, here are the four things that we're going to do tomorrow, and we're gonna turn, we're gonna turn it around. I'm really in a posture right now of listening to lead. I want to hear. What people are saying, how they're experiencing KIPP DC. I wanna hear that firsthand from students, from school leaders, from families. What is it that they're hearing from our key partners and stakeholders and funders? What do you need? How do you need KIPP DC to show up? What is top of mind for you? What are we missing? What are we knocking out of the park? At the same time, the timing is somewhat fortuitous. We are also in the. In the middle of our strategic planning process for a multi-year strategic plan. So we, the KIPP Foundation has a twenty thirty plan for the entire KIPP network, so all of the regions and the foundation. And we are building our KIPP DC strategic plan on top of that national plan. I see. And so that plan should be finished roughly in two to three months. And that is what I will kind of. Land on as this is what will be guiding us over the next four years. It won't be, you know, kind of, you know, things that I just come up with after a conversation or things that I come up with after I read something online. It'll be intentional and deliberate because in order for us to really be focused around it has to have all of our stakeholders input and be truly designed to deliver on outcomes that are meaningful for them.

Andy and I interviewed steven Wilson at the conference this last year. I'm sure you're familiar with his book and with his critique in general of high formerly what he, how he defined as high performing CMOs. And he saw it as he sees it, and I don't want, I can't do justice to his whole argument, but he, you know, some broad strokes are. Just not focusing as much on the academic expectations and perhaps getting distracted by other. Other topics he would use the term woke. I'm not sure if I would myself, but to what extent are you are, what reaction do you have to that critique in general? Was it appropriate? Is it kind of right, kind of wrong? How do you, what's your starting point in terms of reading that book?

Yeah, and I, and I, to be honest, I have not read the book, so I don't wanna, I don't wanna speak specifically to that, but I'll say more generally, there are lots of things that happened, and I'll speak to KIPP DC in particular during KIPP DC's, let's say last 10 to 15 years. That may line up with other moments, but that does not suggest a causal relationship. and I think it's important to acknowledge at the same time that the kind of whole country had an awakening around race and equity and all the things. KIPP DC was also growing tremendously

right?

So, you know, we've added a number of campuses in the last few years

right?

And so I think, you know, as much as there may be stories about, you know, whether people wanna call it woke or whatever, we're also a very different system than we were 10 years ago. What you can do at a school system that may have five schools or six schools is different than one that has 20. what you can do when you are have extremely ambitious enrollment targets is different than when you are small and nimble. And you have wait list of thousands of students even in DC at the context around discipline. For example, our regulatory and our policy environment changed. So I, you know, I used to, in a former life when I was in grad school, I was a quantitative person. I love stats and it was like, yeah, I could be in the systems like crunching numbers all day. I'm not in that world anymore. That's not, you know, you know, top of mind for me. But I do think there is probably in some researcher like let's plug in across all the entire country, all of the different things that were happening. And let's see, actually where there is a causal relationship because I don't see it there. And importantly for me. To the extent that we've made cultural changes in response to what our students and families have said they want and need, that is the right thing to do.

Yeah.

That is the right thing to do and one thing I often tell people here is thousands of families still choose KIPP DC every year.

Yep.

With all the choice that they have. In DC 7.3 thousand students attend KIPP DC and no, we are not forcing any of them to come. There is something here that they want. There is something here that they're finding rewarding. There's something here that they find important to setting themselves up for lifelong success, and that's what we're about. Can we do it better? Absolutely. And that is what we are planning around designing around. We'll be holding ourselves accountable to what our authorizer will hold us accountable to, but they keep coming. So we're here.

Okay. Well, and look, I, if there's anybody that's up to this level of challenge both I think helping us define better what would be good North Stars for our organizations like kip to aspire toward. And then how to get ourselves further in that direction. I. I'd bet on Shannon Hodge. I'd bet on Shannon Hodge. Thank you. Let me ask you, so yeah, I mean, you talk about 7.3 thousand kids in charter schools in DC we probably have somewhere in the neighborhood of 45 thousand kids. We 45% of the 45, 46, 40 7% of kids in charter schools in DC. So tell me, what do you think? Is the future of, and I know you and I talked about this a lot at DC this is, you know, part of the area where you were like, okay I've heard enough from Wallace. My gosh. You know, but you know, I will ask it again. I think that a big challenge that we have in a lot of places. Especially when we get to 30, 40, 50% of kids in charter schools. We just don't know what that next thing is. And I think we have some examples now emerging in the national landscape what's happening in indianapolis. I think the stunning results that are coming out of New Orleans, and I'm not saying one size fits all and oh, DC has to be New Orleans or what, but what do you think is real if you look at it at that frame that Ramona always taught us? Look back multiple decades. Look forward multiple decades. Where are we gonna be in twenty forty? In DC as a charter school collective. And then what is KIPP's role in helping us get there more successfully, more quickly. However you wanna define it.

I'm gonna throw out a term that I first heard from you and I use occasionally, including in my lunch and learns.

Well, I'm complimented to begin with.

Yes. Charter ness. I, what I think we will see is elements of charterness throughout our education ecosystem. And I think we will have charterness in charters. I think we will have charterness in traditional public schools. I think the notions that being nimble and responsive to what families and students want, cutting back the red tape where it can be cut back, where it's an exchange for real accountability, that core of what it means to be a charter. I think we'll see even more. some of the articles that have come out around Susan's transition have highlighted what KIPP DC has done to help elevate education in DC and I think you will see that a continue in the future for KIPP DC in particular for the sector more broadly, that we will continue to lift and continue to get better because those elements of charterness will continue to thrive. You know what's interesting in, and I don't, I can't speak to other cities, but what I certainly know in d. See is that many families don't actually know whether their students are enrolled in charter schools or whether their students are enrolled in traditional public schools. They just know that it's a school, it's a good school. They like their school, they chose their school. They're proud of that school and. The opportunity to lead in that type of environment. Where it's about the quality of the school that the student attends quality as defined by the families and students who are choosing it, makes all the difference because we can make sure that we're delivering on our promises to them. And that is what I think KIPP can show over the next 15, 20, or the next 25 years is how we deliver on those promises to students.

So you're doing all this amid what may be the most politically partisan moment our country has ever seen. DC is one of the places where the partisan ness, charterness, and partisan ness I've gotta, you know, excessive nesses here, but is being expressed at very intense levels. These things impose taxes on our charter school organizations. They also lead to questions coming from our stakeholders about what we stand for. sometimes we can see those moments arise and if we get off of our focus. It's actually not our place to be. There are other times when, if we don't. Hit the shot. If the ball's given to us and it's clear, it's our shot to take and we don't take it can be a real problem. So, and again, kip in the fishbowl, how do you, how do you, how are you talking with your world about how you keep your proper focus and then when the moments are necessary for us to express something that instills confidence in our stakeholders? We do. So how are you thinking about that?

We made the decision very early on, and I think the analogy that I used was riding a rollercoaster. That the partisan nature of the world that we're living in right now can feel a little bit like riding the rollercoaster. And our students can't afford for our fourteen hundred staff to ride the rollercoaster. So 99.9% of our staff get off the ride, do what you have to do every single day to deliver for our students. Your focus should be on your core work, whatever that core work is, whether you are in a classroom teaching, whether you are a school leader leading, whether you're an ops person supporting schools, we want you to be able to focus on that. We will take this on. So we have a small group that meets and our job is to figure out how we at KIPP DC need to respond to whatever's happening out in the world, and we will raise a flag when we need people to know something and otherwise keep doing what you're doing. But we started that in particular with our central office team with education. We went back to, you know, maybe fourth grade government 12th grade government, depending on, you know, where you live and how much they expose you to it, and branches of government, how government worked what the rule of law was, how we at KIPP DC were navigating this space. We did q and a and really shared with people how we were processing what was going on. And the central theme was, our mission hasn't changed. Mm. Our work hasn't changed. We have a team that is figuring out. How we need to navigate differently if we do and we haven't changed. Love that what we promised to our students and families. We are still delivering on the experiences that our staff expect. We're still delivering on. And the group of people who need to worry about what's changing on the ecosystem. This lawsuit, that lawsuit, this policy change, this order, they're doing that. But they're taking, they're riding that rollercoaster so that other people don't have to.

So I have Ramona's voice in my head right now. I've got Howard's in my head as well. I wanna get to questions. I don't know if I can channel either of those two, but I'll try. But before we get there, I wanna ask you one other question just about advocacy and unity. And you've been now at Kingsman. Kingsman is definitely member of DC Alliance. Been a member of focus going back a long ways. And KIPP has always been active and members of the different structures. I don't know exactly, you know, who is members of which, but it seems to me as though the unity of all schools is super important. But when our large CMOs get disconnected from our charter school associations It's absolutely terrible. It's terrible. And you know, it's, it, I compare it in Los Angeles, you know, using old school NBA terms, you know, it's like trying to expect the lakers you know, to win without kobe, you know, it's just never gonna happen. Right. And yet in some places. KIPP specifically, but other big CMOs, kobe. Ain't playing for the lakers anymore, or isn't on the same team. And I don't have any worry about that for you because given where you've come from. Right. But again, you see something given those experiences that perhaps others might not. If you were going to say anything to the associations, hey, get your acts together in a different way 'cause you're actually contributing to the problem or to the CMO leader, same thing. What would you say?

Oh, that's a very good question. My, one of my big realizations from running the DC Charter School Alliance after having led a single site, LEA, is that there's often a mismatch between what the associations think school leaders are doing, how they're spending their time, what capacity they have, what they value, what they prioritize and what they actually are doing. And so I realized very early on that making sure that leaders understood that I valued their time. We're gonna meet once a month for an hour. It's gonna be an action packed hour. I'm gonna give you information you didn't know. I'm gonna give you a chance to learn what's happening in your in the city and what other leaders are thinking. I'm gonna raise a couple of issues for you, and then two weeks later I'm gonna send you an email. Don't read it too closely, just press the button and send the email that I ask you to send. Right.

Yep.

Leaders, we got tremendous support by showing that we valued their time and understood what they needed from us. And I think having been on both sides of that, it requires so much work and energy to be able to get leaders attention. On the things that they value. So I might, and now having been at KIPP and having been at Kingsman I've also been at the opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of size of LEA you know, design of school. People who are running associations have to understand that different LEAs are going to have different levers. There are different words you will have to say to get me on the phone now in the seat that I'm in versus when I was at Kingsman. Yeah. My, I have a team now. It's great. So like I, you know, I have someone for that. Do you want me to put you in contact with that person? I can do that. Which is maybe a different question than that. The leader at Kingsman at the same time, I think. And this is definitely a Ramona lesson. People don't know what they don't know. And so leaders who don't know, hey, when Ariel at the DC Alliance is asking you to do this thing, here are all of the things that she's actually trying to get done. And you may not understand the importance of that one thing she's asking you to do, but it's important in the overall. Overall plan. And so getting leaders to know like, hey, there are a couple of types of emails that you actually have to respond to, or, you know, if you get it, that text message, you know, drop everything because it, you may not understand how all the pieces fit together, but they do fit together, so I think that there is a. I don't know how many association leaders have sat in both seats recently.

Right.

But that ability to understand what the other person is experiencing needs the ask that they're actually making, the importance of the ask, what's at stake. All those conversations are important.

All right. Great. Well, I invite you, if you see me in the writing or the interviewing that I'm doing at CharterFolk, that's. Tone wrong in this or I'm missing an opportunity. Hey. 'cause I think a lot of the association CEOs watch a lot of it and read a lot of it, okay? And I do think there are, there gotta be at least 25 CMO leaders that I know that I think they read almost everything, right? Yeah. And if I'm blowing it. If I'm blowing it, then tell me. But this is absolutely essential. The small schools being members of ours, I mean, this is another thing too it's just to say to the big CMOs sometimes they just believe that their presence in the legislature is just so much higher and they're respected so much more and all that kind stuff, and they can't see. That they actually can't get certain legislators that the smaller organizations can get, you know, and vice versa, the smaller ones, like, you're never gonna get so and so, but if you let kip do their thing, you know, and you do your thing. But if any of them fly the coop on us then just the this, the movement wide pain is just so pronounced.

Yeah. And I'm very clear. And understanding that like for us, our council members sometimes get sick of hearing from me. They get sick of hearing from KIPP. And so we are very intentional about trying to spread out the wealth. So if it's a topic that is really close to what's happening in schools, we will send a school principal, not me. Right, but knowing how to what ask to make of which leader based on what the ultimate outcome is, just requires a level of skill and understanding. The other thing I'll say too is that you know, I always tell people, if you don't want me to respond to you, the best way to reach out to me is to send me an email. We do, so we rely so heavily on emails and saying, well, I told them, or I reached out to them. It's like I get hundreds of emails a day.

Yep.

And I'm just, I'm probably not going to see it and or like prioritize it, but the people who need to get to me know that if you send me a text message and you say, you need me, I'm there. So like, what does, what does that look like? Almost a differentiated approach to what the ask is versus what the leader needs to hear from is just so important. But I will definitely let you know if I, if I see you getting the tone wrong

please. I trust that you will. So great. Alright, so let's go to Ramona's. She had so many different things that, you know, she loved. I mean, the thing that I think. Aside from like my insufferably I think Ramona wrote the longest contributor column that's ever been written at CharterFolk. And it was really a history of charter schools in DC And she had a chance to make the argument that without knowing the history. We can't appreciate how far we've come. We also, a lot of us are just, especially our newcomers. This relates a little bit to Howard. We'll get to Howard, you know, after the, you know, they don't remember. They don't know how broken it was. And so when they come into an organization. They see things being different. Right now they kind of assume it's always been this way, but it hasn't been. So how do you think about the importance of history telling? The other thing too, I think it's fascinating to see how people react to the New Orleans story differently depending on who's telling it. Yes, sometimes. Sometimes people tell it differently and you can actually parse it out by what they're choosing to focus on. Sometimes they're saying. Almost identical things but people respond to different people sharing it. So what's, how do you think about the DC history story? How do you think about the chorus of voices that can be brought in to tell it most effectively? What's its importance in terms of anchoring ourselves for the, for the gener, for the decades ahead?

Yeah. When I first joined the Alliance the DC Alliance. We were still virtual in the, in the, in the middle of the pandemic, early pandemic. And one of the things that we did was we recorded a series of conversations with some of the history makers in DC Charter world because we knew that they were getting older. We knew that the stories were getting lost and we weren't aware of any one place where people were actually having conversations. Some of these key players and so it's probably worth trying to find where those videos are. We got them aired on our public television station.

I remember them. I remember them

for sure. And part of that was around like recording the legacy and recording the history. As far as I know, there isn't like a. DC Charters 1 0 1. Course that we give one of my lunch and learns is about the history of charters. Nationally and in DC and what we fought for. I don't know that I do justice to what Ramona would've shared in the context she would've provided, but I absolutely think that's important to understand the local. Context, right? And the layers of the context and in the same and

layers, and they love that, right?

In the same way that people in New Orleans may tell the story differently. So too will people in DC. Depending on their proximity to the district of Columbia public school system, depending on like what part of the charter sector they're in. One of the things that sets DC Charter schools apart is that DC charter schools include adult schools, which is a very interesting set up that most states do not have. That provides tremendous workforce development and educational opportunities for adults. And so the people who are in that world have a whole other story to tell.

Right.

and I think for us to maintain charters, to continue to have charters thrive, both in size and in quality, understanding what's at risk and what it took to get here is a key component of that.

I think that, and I told David Osborne this myself. I really like his movie. And I've, I mean, for, I've sold, I've sung its praises over and over again, and I'm going to continue to, and I also told him that if when I first viewed it, the first few minutes, I was full of chagrin because he started. With the history in nineteen ninety-five. You know, 96, 97, something like that. And I, al and Ramona always taught us go back earlier than that. Yeah. Now with David's credit, he actually did it. He just did it in the middle of the movie.

Right. Yeah.

but you've now sat through, you've had to fidget for like 45 minutes because a lot of. The brokenness that was there at the inception of the charter school movement happened during a period where we happened to have a lot of black leadership in urban school districts. and so without broader context, without knowing what had happened before, without seeing like what happened with, you know, the milliken case, you know, for, you know. Right. And just the white flight and the red lines that were there and the broken funding systems that were there, you just get the wrong impression. Yeah, that these folks had it perfectly within their control. They could have done something, you know, completely differently. Oh my good, right? And it just gets the whole conversation off on the wrong track. Yeah. And the thing for me also is around this stuff around. Wokeness and what, look as far as like anti-racism and that kind of stuff. I mean, if you can't talk about the racism that's just deeply embedded in public education and is actually what sets us off to start our work, then you're all, you're just aew. You're just aew. So I mean, how, when you talk about the history in DC how far back do you go and how do you make sure that. The right parts of the story get emphasized in the way that Ramona always reminded us to do.

I mean, I, there are people who have been in public education in DC for generations, right? And so I think any point that you start is arbitrary, but certainly the mid nineties is arbitrary.

Right. Love that.

Right? Like. Schools don't exist in a vacuum anywhere, and they certainly don't exist in a vacuum in DC. And so understanding, even like in the moment that we're in, one of the things that we worked with our central office team to understand is because DC is not a state, there is no protection between DC and the federal administration. We are so vulnerable in the state, in the space that we are, that we exist in as a city. And understanding that through the generations understanding the importance of home rule, understanding where public education fits into a strong city, all those things are important. The role that charters have played in lifting up education, public education in a city, all of that's important. Like just even like fundamentally understanding DC as a city. Is critical. Everyone has their lens, everyone has their viewpoint. Everyone has their perspective on what that story is, and maybe the point is actually to understand them all.

Mm.

Not to pick just one, but to understand how all of those stories have led us to where we are today. I

love that. I've never written about it at CharterFolk. I've thought of doing it on several occasions when I taught history in fifth grade. I definitely, I use the color spectrum all the time. And we always taught six versions of history and the, and the students would be encouraged to. Choose their perspective or why this one, or has it changed over time? And I think it's a great way for perhaps our overall movement to be thinking about this. We operate within a, within a spectrum of opinions here.

Okay. And the other thing is that, like, that spectrum is what shapes people's realities.

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah.

And how they experience what's happening right now. There isn't just one experience right now.

Yep. Yep.

And there isn't just one history.

So let's cra let's finish here with Howard's challenge. The newcomers coming in and what I'm I will say I was a part of a conversation with the school support people from state associations across the country. And also, and her could not be there. Okay. So I wasn't able to ask her, but it was fascinating. I asked people, Howard's question, how many of these people that do school support. How many of them have been asked by schools, hey, I'm about ready to do a new teacher induction, or I'm having my first day back. And you know, I think a lot of my people just don't know what a charter school is. They don't know why we exist. Don't you have like eight or 10 slides or something they can get things started and no. Every one of them said, it's never been requested of us. And you're right. We don't have that developed. We probably, not only should we be developing it, but we should be encouraging people to use it or you know, swapping across organizations as we find out what works. So I think, you know, I'm pushing against an open door. I imagine you think that this is important, but the question is how do we do it in a way that actually works? I mean, have you had any experiences in KIPP or anywhere where you think oh, I've got him in this room the way we've designed this discussion. It's doing what we want or where are we still messing this up?

So before I answer that question, I will answer on behalf of Ariel. Okay. The DC Charter School Alliance absolutely has a deck that they share out.

Alright.

On both, I think charter fundamentals and important parts of charter messaging. So.

That's great.

Those two things are important. And not to pat myself on the back, but I think my charter 1 0 1 and it's follow up I forget what I called it the truth about charters. Yeah. They are interactive quizzes with prizes and educational designed for people who are working in charters to actually understand what's going on. So I have, like, I have a series that I have done. Those are the two that are focused most on people understanding charters. But in those we talk through charter schools or public schools why are they public schools? Right? We talk about how charter schools came to be. We talk about the economics fundamentals. And foundations of how charters became an idea. We talk about teacher created charters and how that, where, why that why the unions initially supported charters and what that looked like. We talk about what's at stake. We talk about the bargain

Yep.

And why accountability is so important and what's on the other side of that equation because it's not account, it's not unchecked accountability.

Yep.

so like all those things are important. To educate people on. and I have found that in person, interactive, like spread out over time, reinforcing messaging, all of your like best adult learning techniques with people who are already in it and who want to learn more is the way, the one thing I ask everyone is talk to your neighbor about why charter schools are public schools. Because. Those are the conversations that change perceptions. It's not right. It's not a commercial on tv. It's not something on social media. It is the neighbor that you trust, the friend that you trust, saying oh, by the way, I work at KIPP DC.

Yeah.

KIPP DC, aren't they? You know, aren't they privatizing education? No. Charter schools are public schools. Lemme tell you why. That's how we change minds. That's how we get support. That's how we make sure people understand what charters bring to public education. And it, but it requires intentionality and it requires doing it over and over and over again.

Again, at risk of like saying I can channel Howard Fuller, but I am thinking about my conversation with him where he specifically brought up that the conversation about charter schools being public schools, internal. Internal. Isn't enough. That it's, yes, we are public schools, but there are things about us that are different than the way public education has been typically set up. And it's those things that we really need to emphasize. How are you balancing, hey, reminding everybody, yes, we are public schools and we serve all kids. You know, and yet there are aspects of our design that are intentionally different.

And that is the second message around the bargain of accountability for flexibility. Right. Like that is the, that is the rest, that is the remainder of the message so that people understand that, as I often say the main tool of government is bureaucracy. That is not what helps us. Right. And the bargain that we have made is that in exchange for the accountability to be held accountable to the goals in our charter, there are certain things that we are promised. One of those is flexibility, right? Fair funding is another, right? So people walk away with those understandings, but if they don't understand that charter schools are public schools, they'll never get to the rest of it. It will always feel like something other, something they shouldn't care about. Making sure they understand that charter schools are public, schools are the way to draw them in.

Yeah.

But there's certainly more to the messaging.

Yep. Well, Shannon this has been, this has been awesome. You may have had some things that you wanted to talk about or some subject that was something that's been on your mind. Anything else that you wanted to talk about today that we haven't covered so far?

Nothing I can think about. This has been a great conversation.

Well, I'm reminded of when I first met you, when you were being recruited to DC Alliance and how. Excited I was when you were first chosen. 'cause I just, you exude a competence and an understanding of these issues. That really instills confidence in other people quickly. And so I feel the same thing now about you going to KIPP DC in this role. I'm sure you're gonna nail it. And I look forward to staying in contact with you and I do very much look forward to. Hearing from you as I often heard from you before about hey, that's mostly right Wallace, but not entirely right. So please keep playing the Shannon role with me, you know, in your new position whenever you have time, consistent with how you've done so with the work that we've done before, previously.

I can certainly do that and I look forward to the opportunity.

Okay, great. Thank you so much. Great to see you, Shannon.

You too.

Bye.