CharterFolk Chat with Diana Diaz-Harrison

Hello Charter Folk.

Delighted to have you here and delighted to have our guest today.

We're very fortunate today to have a chance to talk to Diana Diaz-Harrison,

who is the founder of Arizona Autism Charter Schools, which was the recent

winner of the YASS Prize nationally.

Diana, let's bring you on right now, and just delighted to have you here.

Welcome to Charter Folk.

Congratulations on the YA Prize.

Congratulations on having made a school that is perceived by so many to be making

such a great difference and inspiring a lot in our movement to do even more.

There's all sorts of things I'd love to dive into, but just because of your

knowledge around autism generally and just the questions that so many people

society have about this, I wanted to start focusing on that I thought that

I knew a fair deal about autism myself, but to visit the CDC and see that the

or something, thereabouts, I'm sorry, one in like one hundred sixty-six kids.

And now we see, it's at one in 54, and some folks are saying it may be

even a, a smaller number than that.

So we are seeing a large increase in the identification and most people

are celebrating this absolutely as an indicator that we're doing a far greater

job of just finding folks that have autism and being able to respond accordingly.

But others are also identifying, perhaps we're seeing a higher

incidence, that autism is actually happening more in society.

Can you tell me how do we parse this information?

What's your per personal opinion on these issues given your expertise?

I definitely think that there's more awareness of autism as

a neurodiversity, and as different communities get better access to

healthcare and medical diagnoses as schools become more proficient

in their school evaluations in identifying autism, that has contributed

to a higher incidence of autism.

In particular, for example, here in Arizona, we have a large Hispanic

community, and I think eliminating or reducing the stigma associated

with autism has helped many kids and families seek diagnosis sooner than

later, and that is what we want because early intervention is very important

in serving children with autism.

So I think eliminating the stigma has contributed to teasing out autism

from other developmental conditions and having more awareness has also

led to higher rates of diagnosis.

Yeah, I was fascinated to see that the delta between autism identification

rates in caucasian students and in black students has basically evaporated

over the 20 years that I was previously referencing, although it looks as though

black students are identified with autism later than white students are.

And when you're talking about, early intervention being so important,

we can see how that disparity could have profound consequences.

And I still see that, tell me what can you just explain what the

consequences are for identifying later and, and why we should be so in

focused on getting even better at this?

Yeah.

So early intervention for kids on the spectrum, on the autism

spectrum is all about your learning to learn skills, right?

How to attend to a person or a task, or acquiring functional communication,

because a lot of kids on the spectrum have communication gaps, that's

one of the core symptoms of autism.

So they have a lot of catching up to do that doesn't happen

through the natural environment.

There are specific therapeutic interventions that are evidence-based

that need to be worked on intensively during the early years, that's pre

five years old, that's from when, as early as, two years old to when a

child becomes school age at five old.

So that's why early intervention really makes a difference.

As when children are young, their grades are more moldable as well, they're

making more neurological connections that can really make or break really

a student successful start in school.

Of course some of our students have never had access to these, to early

intervention or official diagnoses, but their parents know, they need a

specialty program because what they were doing in typical school wasn't working

out and we do everything that we can to catch them up, in terms of their

basic learning to learn skills, shape behavior, so that they're able to access

learning through a school environment, and that's a huge part of what we do.

. Jed: Yeah.

My experience is primarily anecdotal here and having a couple teenagers in the

household with a lot of friends, several of whom have been identified, but to be

able to see the difference between those that were identified earlier in their

lives versus some of our friends that have been identified just in the last

year or two, it's a very different overall profile for that kids' experience in

school, that kids' experience growing up.

So early identification is obviously very important.

And it's something that also relates to how our overall public

education world is doing relative to identification and support.

I wonder, so we see that the identification rates

have increased over time.

How would you assess like our K-12 readiness?

Are we doing a decent job?

Are we getting better at this?

Where are the very big problems that still remain?

And maybe where do you see opportunities for the charter world to provide

some critically needed leadership in terms of improving autism support

across the entire K-12 establishment?

I would say I'm super grateful that here in Arizona we were able to

start a charter school, using best practices that are typically only seen

in clinical settings or private schools.

Schools like mine do exist, but they're 40 to $50,000 a year, and that's just

not accessible for most families.

I paid that for a couple of years and couldn't keep going in that trajectory.

So I learned that in other states like Florida, there was a successful tuition

free autism charter, and I thought, our state with the high incidence of

autism and parents seeking solutions that were just not being listened to

in typical mainstream district schools.

It was about time that Arizona had a model that was best practice and tuition free

and completely prioritizing the smaller, more personalized learning environments

that are needed by children with autism.

So I think we are really blazing the trail to show what school for kids

with autism should look like to help the students become as fulfilled,

independent, and creative and community contributors of post-secondary.

I think most districts do have a SPED program, but these programs, as

a mom, I experienced, they were all about what the kid couldn't do and

what the school was not going to do.

And it was all about what is free and appropriate, because that's the law

to have to be an appropriate public education, but what's appropriate

to an education bureaucrat is completely different than what's

appropriate for an autism mom.

So there were many directions that I could have gone, like many parents,

I hired advocates, attorneys, and all of this thing, and at the end of the

day I realize that, even if I win, this program is going to be forced.

It's not going to be a program that's done with the intentionality and love

that I want for my kid, like a parent paying 50 to $100,000 a year at the most

prestigious autism private programs.

So I researched what a charter school could look like, what the fund funding

formula was and it became very feasible that if our state approved our charter,

that we could make better use of the funds, by having it in a charter

model that was driven by parents than by bureaucrats who were just about

telling us what our kids couldn't do and what they were not going to do.

So it's reminding me, I'm just coming back from a visit with my

parents, and they have a group of friends that know that their son

is obsessed with charter schools.

And so those friends will send articles to them, and so when I got to see mom this

weekend, she had these articles there.

The top article was about how well charter schools are doing with foster youth.

And it was a story of a particular school and a particular, I happen to know that

school and leader very well, but I also know the background of that school, which

was the entry point, was we don't wanna do this in the context of a charter, we are

going to do it within the broader system and just spinning wheels for eight, ten,

I think it was longer than 10 years before this incredible school got started, but

once people realized, that running at the problem they're most passionate with

about within the charter school context was what they were focused on, wow, why

are you may able to make more progress?

Right.

So I see you in a very comparable situation, there's

a clear problem in the world.

There's a clear problem in our education world to respond to that broader

societal problem and now we need to unleash people to come up with the

solutions that are desperately needed.

It sounds to me as like you, it's very similar to what you had.

Tell me a little bit about what was it like to become a charter folk?

Did you resist it in the beginning?

Did you have other ways that you wanted to do it?

Or did it wasn't natural for you to think about it really early in the process?

No, I mean, it wasn't my first thought, I was basically just a mom

needing a better education solution for my kid who was highly impacted by

autism, but I was a little bit spoiled because I did get him into early

intervention of the best type early on.

And, while I saw how he was in a typical principal, which was a disaster just

sensory overload, large class size teacher who had no idea what to do with him.

He was very bouncy, more so than typical preschoolers.

Then he went into small group and one-on-one early intervention that was

based on applied behavior analysis, which is backed by more than 50 years

of research to produce best outcomes for kids like my son with autism.

And I thought, bingo, we're gonna keep doing that.

We're going to do that until he doesn't need as much deliberate support.

And so we did, a few years of early intervention, then when he became school

age, they weren't doing that, even though the district had an autism program,

they said that all of the therapeutic practices were above and beyond pretty

inappropriate, and I'm like, that's silly.

We know this is what works for kids.

Like my son, there's a class full of kids that learn the same way he does.

And so then it all became, it's that horrible feeling of becoming

adversary, you're, you become that mom that is a nag and not settling.

So, again, I did the drill hired Agba kit and attorneys.

He got put in a private placement.

And that also just wasn't the way I wanted school to go for

myself as a mom and for my son.

So it was actually very refreshing to learn that other states had gone on a

path to open charter schools that were based on applied behavior analysis

and had all of the curriculum and instruction, the small groupings, the

embedded therapies that were needed.

And I pitched it to a lot of seasoned, educators or clinical people that

worked with kids with autism, but nobody wanted to touch how

litigious special education can be.

And so after a lot of going around and closed doors, I decided, well if I really

care about this, which I do, I'm going to have to form a team myself and I can.

That is the charter folk story.

And it's also, it's something that I think it's frustrating for our world

to have to remember, but when we're sometimes accosted in the supermarket.

You're a charter school supporter and I hear all this stuff, right?

When you're able to go back and say what the problem was and your willingness

to try to make it work in so many other different ways, and it's not working

and then coming to this way, and it's in fact, working is a really great entry

point for a redefined discussion with whomever it is that you're talking about.

And it seems to be, and it seems to me like coming to see your school is

probably a very important thing too.

I know where the Governor of Arizona comes and many others come.

But for those that haven't been able to make a personal visit to your school,

and by the way, I'm coming to Arizona shortly and your school is absolutely the

top of list, I can't wait to get there.

But just equate our listeners or our viewers with how would you give

the backstage path to how Arizona autism really works given that some

of our folks are really educators and really understand how a lot of these

kinds of programs are put together.

Yeah, so I think the tricky thing with autism is

that it is a spectrum, right?

There are some folks who have very intensive behavioral and communication

challenges and then there are kids who are on the autism spectrum, who are highly

verbal and have no scattered skills.

They might be very gifted in math, for example, but still struggle with language

and communication and understanding social nuances, which become very

important in middle and high school.

So because we serve the whole spectrum, the way we group kids by abilities

and needs, helps us be successful.

We have programs for very intensive needs for high functioning students,

and we have special programs for students falling somewhere in between,

and we can only do that because our whole school serves kids with autism.

In a typical district school, for example, you might have five kids on the spectrum.

One of 'em is a high functioning math genius, another one is still

needing toilet training and is very impacted, but they may be placed

in the same autism classroom.

It's almost not fair, it's very feasible for us to group students liabilities

and needs and staff accordingly.

Students that have a lot of needs, you'll see a two to one or even a

one-on-one ratio because you're working on communication and functional skills.

For our classes of kids who are higher functioning, it might look

more like a typical classroom, but you really won't see more than twelve

to thirteen kids, a lead teacher and two behavior support staff.

In some cases, you might see therapists pushing in as well.

And then every kid has a personalized learning program because there are

a range of strengths and challenges that need to be worked on very

deliberately with kids with autism.

So in addition to obviously tracking how they're doing in language arts,

math, science, we're also tracking their behavior, social skills, and their ability

to navigate a group environment, which is a little harder for our kids, and so that

all needs to be taught very deliberately.

So that's a great backstage pass to the program.

I would love to go further into this.

Just being an old teacher myself and the only pushback I ever got from

my parents was my father saying to me, I hear the charter schools don't

serve special ed kids, and I was just assuring him, are you kidding me, dad?

No.

Every kid and every problem we think that we can run out

with greater effectiveness.

So I'd love to dive further into the details, but I have to recognize we

only have so much time with you and there's so many other backstage passes

you can equate our listeners with.

Give me the backstage pass for the YASS Prize, I mean, congratulations again.

All the applicants across the entire country and Arizona Autism is supported.

Can you tell us, I mean, what was the most exciting moment and what

has the experience been generally to have been recognized like this?

Oh, it's been amazing and I'm so grateful that, I really love that

the YASS Prize and other, other private funders as well are starting to recognize

that there are various paths to success.

While some students may go to college, other students may be entrepreneurial.

We could equip them with the ability to start a business which is better

suited to their personality and trait.

And then other kids, that we serve might be in a facilited working

environment because that's the support they need to be productive.

And so just because a child is highly impacted or has different

social skills, doesn't mean that they shouldn't be invested in.

And so I was so grateful to be able to tell the stories of how our kids go

from feeling defeated and the parents as well, because the whole education

previous to us was all about their challenges and what they couldn't do.

Whereas here we build up from their strengths and help them catch up on

all those gap skills to be feel like fulfilled, productive students that

leads to build productive citizens.

We really, even though autism does have real challenges, we like to

think of it as a neurodiversity.

Over time there were likely a lot of people autism but they were just

seen as eccentric or if you think about it in a scary way, they were in

institutions if they had a lot of meaning.

Nevertheless, it is an out of the box way of learning and seeing the world

that if funnels appropriately, can help us solve a lot of challenge, and I think

our kids can be amazing contributors.

At our school we also have adopted the was ed curriculum for the STEAM

learning projects, and our kids, once they have those learning to the learn

skills and are engaged in hands-on projects with very interesting text

materials, they thrive and sometimes they surprise their teachers because

they come up with things that a typical brain would have a hard time doing.

So I think when you see the kids as Neurodiverse even gifted and change

the narrative about how they feel about themselves, how their family

see them, how the community sees them.

Then it's a whole different ballgame in terms of the possibility.

So then, tell me about next chapters.

So we have this exciting prize and I've heard a little bit, but I don't

know too much about your vision for the future, how you might use these new

resources to catalyze even more impact in Arizona and across the country.

Tell me what you're thinking about for next chapters for Arizona Autism.

Yes.

So we do have a few more campuses planned for Arizona, our home state, and part

of the gas price is going to help us launch the National Accelerator of Autism

Charter schools because we believe this should be a choice no matter where you

live or what state you're in, parents shouldn't be subjected to just mediocre

to low performing programs because that's the only choice at their district.

Or paying 50 to 60 to more thousand a year to go to private school, not sustainable

for a lot of families or most families.

So having a school choice charter solution that is focused on best

practices for autismis in demand.

We have students move from out-of-state to access our school.

Last count, we had students from more than 30 states that had relocated

to be able to attend our school.

We've had parents accept jobs or decline jobs based on whether their

child could attend our school.

And we really feel that families shouldn't have to uproot and move

to get a high quality specialty program for their children.

In many cases, families have more than one child on the spectrum.

We have families of three and four, and your kids are at different levels of

the spectrum and we are grateful and blessed that we can serve them off.

So this is something that the charter school movement can help us fast track

and make available so that no family gets left behind just having to accept

subpar programming for their kids.

So I would imagine you're being somewhat selective about

what states you want to go to.

And it seems as though this effort, its success will hinge on whether

or not the advocacy conditions permitted to happen and I'm sure there

are many states where the existing status quo wouldn't make it work.

Have you already been able to identify your subset of states that you would be

prioritized for building the national accelerator of autism charter schools?

So, Arizona and Florida have done this successfully because the funding

formula for autism is pretty favorable.

But we have had partners in other states who are working with less funding

and adding funding through Medicaid billing for schools to make it work.

So, of course we're going to go into charter friendly states first,

we've identified Nevada and Texas.

We know what it takes to educate to successfully, so there could be a

number of funding screens from federal IDEA using title funds strategically

using interns from universities to help elevate the staffing ratio.

I mean, we parents will do whatever it takes and then slowly but surely

work on getting the funding formula where it leads to be by serving as

a proof point for what's possible when the right funding is in place.

And also by when we have longer term data showing that our kids can be

more self-sufficient when they've been through our educational program

and they won't have to rely on the state for their entire adult life.

They could also be contributing members of society.

So yes, we will definitely go after states that are more favorable funding wise,

but we're not going to give up there because students with autism families,

kids with autism are everywhere and it would be amazing for families to have

this option no matter where they live.

A Lot of the advocacy challenge would pertain to any kind of school.

What is the funding mechanism for autism and special needs kids generally, then we

have the uniqueness of charter schools.

What would your message be to the charter school advocates?

X State, just greenfield.

We don't know all of the rules yet.

What are the things that the advocates should be thinking about to make sure that

organizations like yours can thrive there?

Obviously getting a generally favorable environment such that charters can get

approved and we have a facility to be able to operate the program in something

that alters schools have to look at.

But then there are the specifics around funding mechanisms, and it sounds to

me as though in Arizona and in Florida, there are funding mechanisms specific

to children identified with autism that seems to be a key enabler and I know that

there are many other states that don't have such funding specific to autism or

anything like that, but where there's this like general funding that's available and

somehow you're supposed to make it work.

Whomever the kids are that show up at your front door.

Tell me what's the right way for our advocates, from a charter school

perspective, to be thinking about this so that we can make sure schools like

yours can grow in many other states?

I think there's a case to be made for special population schools for sure,

because when we are serving, for example in our case, most of our population is

on the autism spectrum, the economies of scales that can happen and the

bruisings that are specific to children's abilities and needs are more successful

and therefore more cost effective.

So, while some of our detractors may say students on the spectrum would

be better off in a typical mainstream environment, isn't that what you want?

Most parents like me have tried that and our kids, even though they

may be in a class of 25 typical kids, they're more isolated than

ever and in some cases even unsafe.

So having these smaller specialty environments, is more successful,

more cost effective, in terms of what it costs the state for a person with

autism across the lifespan, doing this investment during K-12 can be less

reliance on the space in the future.

I think that's definitely getting more of our kids on the spectrum in the workforce

is part of a of the biggest driver for us.

Again, whether it's independent employment facilitated employment, no matter what

it is we are all working towards having our kids not be re relying on safe

services for the rest of their life and I think that cost analysis, investment

and cost analysis should be a driver for making a case for specialty charters like

ours that are going to prioritize best practice for a very high needs population.

I'm not gonna get middle in the middle of this, of the disagreement

or the discussion that's ongoing about whether full inclusion is

the right way or whether or not specialty schools are the right way.

What I love is Charter Folk passionate about their issues, being able to

pursue their view with the freedom and the funding necessary to get it done.

And it seems to me.

At the end of the day, it's parents' choice.

They should be able to pick, if they really want to make it work in a

mainstream environment, go for it.

If that's not work for you.

Then most parents seek out a private option, but then they

realize they can't afford it.

So that's where we come in to be that smaller specialty option that is

accessible cause it's tuition free.

And so it seems to me as though one of the problems that we have is that we

simply don't Identify kids early enough and provide the resources to the parents

regardless of where they choose to enroll their kids, and if we would get that done

well, then it would enable both those parents that want to see their kids served

within a full inclusion environment, provide the resources to properly

test whether it's the right place.

And also if they'd like to have their kids in enrolled in a place

like Arizona autism, they would be able to have that choice as well.

And we advocates, I think we need to be doing a better job of keeping

both front and center for us.

We are about going to put our thumbs on the scale either way.

We want parents that were in the situation that you were in not so long ago with

your son to be in a fundamentally better place and for schools to have been

freed up to do exciting new things.

I'll end with us what last question for you, because we can get involved in like

funding and advocacy and political fights and all that stuff, but in the end it's

just what is the positive difference that we're making in kids' lives?

Obviously, as a mom, you made a huge difference in the life of your own

son, but now you've made a difference in the life of so many other children.

So many different experiences are different.

And you're staying, the autism spectrum is very wide, there's no one best thing.

But is there any general viewpoint, is there any rule of thumb that

you would just wish was more understood among the educator world?

About how we can more effectively, serve autism kids and autism and families

where autism kids are within it?

I think the smaller and personalized learning programs that are

data driven for each student and the project based learning that allows kids

to have agency in how they apply their foundational skills and something that

is of high interest to them has been truly magical for us because kids with

autism are known to have very thick.

Right?

We have kids, for example, that memorize every license plate in the parking lot.

So you don't have to learn some foundational skills where they can also

track data on license plates would be.

Yes, that would make them wanna go to school every day because they get to

have a project that's based on their interest, but they're also applying some

foundational skills that are critical for navigating the school, growing in their

academics and at some point applying what they know to an employment opportunity

or an entrepreneurship opportunity.

But I think all of the things that we know are good for kids on the spectrum are the

smaller sizes, the embedded behavioral supports that are all positive behavior

supports, are things that we're starting to notice are beneficial for kids.

A lot of kids now have gaps in learning loss and have traumas of many sorts.

And so, whereas now, social emotional learning is kind of the fun, we've been

doing behavioral and social emotional of learning all along because it's required,

for kids on the autism group spectrum to work on behavior, while you're also

working on academic skill aquisition.

So I think the pendulum is swing swinging for sure, where parents are opting out of

big giant programs and doing micro school.

Why?

Because their kids get more attention if they really get to know their peers.

And a teacher that's serving 10 kids versus a teacher serving 28 kids,

their emotional needs as well as their learning will be tracked better.

And I think there is a lot of value to that personalized support

that really all kids are craving.

Many of us grew up in big classrooms and didn't have this available

and, we tolerated that, right?

Perhaps we tolerated not doing projects that were not interested

or being in a big group and kind of figuring stuff out on your own.

Kids on the spectrum are a little bit more truthful in that if something is

not reaching them or not interesting to them, they'll tell you or they'll

let you know with their behavior.

So I think that as educators, we should really see that as cues for evolving

how we reach students, and really giving them foundational skills and then

agency and how they apply those skills.

That's really what worked well for us, and it's something that we want to replicate

so that other kids on the spectrum and families can just feel better about

what their kids are doing in school.

Absolutely.

It reminds me of the language we used at High Tech High where we realized that some

of the language around special education and other supports for kids with unique

needs sometimes focuses on deficit.

And we forget that, that IEP, which can often be deficit associated

individual education plan.

Are you kidding me?

We want every kid to receive an individualized education plan.

We want every student to receive special education and there are some leaders,

who take advantage of the charter school landscape to help advance an awareness

tthat's what we want for all kids.

And you're helping us do that, Diana.

So thank you so much for the time you spent with us.

Thank you so much for the progress that you're making on behalf of all the

kids that you're serving in Arizona.

But I'll leave a special thank you for just changing the discussion nationally.

Cause I think through your work we're going to see just a huge

number of kids more effectively served in the decades to come.

Thank you so much.

Thank you