The Courageous Charter School Advocate – CharterFolk Chat with Brandon Brown

Brandon Brown, CEO of the MIND Trust.

Thank you so much for joining us here for a CharterFolk Chat.

Hey, thanks so much for having me, Jed.

Really appreciate it.

You know, I've been excited about this one for a while and very

thankful that you agreed to do this.

I think this is an important conversation.

it's also a little bit of a delicate one and I hope that we can demonstrate

some tone rightness here 'cause we could talk about some of these

topics here and just get it wrong.

But I feel like trying to run at some issues right now with as much

candor as we can is probably helpful.

And there's nobody I entrust, you know, in the country, frankly, more than you to

help us on these sensitive topics, speak with candor and show, a great deal

of courage in the work that you're doing.

So again, thank you and, and look forward to diving in here.

We're really looking forward to it.

this should be a lively and super transparent conversation.

Alright.

Almost everybody here that's going to be watching our stuff or listening to

our stuff is gonna know who you are, but there may be a few, and in fact, there

have been some conversations I've had just the last few days, that person's

who's reading, oh, that's interesting.

Okay.

There may be two or three people in Charter Land or in ed reform land that

don't know Brandon Brown or there are probably some that don't really know your

background and how exactly step by step you've found yourself in this place of

immense, responsibility and influence.

can you walk people through what your, what your experience has been

here in charter schools in ed reform?

Yeah.

So I am originally from the south side of Indianapolis.

grew up in a large family, so I was the oldest of.

Five kids.

So I have four younger siblings.

went to college at Wash U and I know that, that you are there

quite often, Jed, which is amazing.

Go Bears.

Go Bears.

That's right.

Go Bears.

great experience.

I was a track and cross country athlete and really.

Learned how to build community through that experience.

And, it, it kind of scratched the competitive itch as well.

I, like many of us, I joined TFA, out of college, taught ninth and 10th

grade English on the south side of St.

Louis.

and like many TFA alums, met my wife when I was in the core.

So she was a middle school math teacher a few miles north of me.

we started dating at the beginning of the school year.

I'm very impatient.

when I kind of make a conclusion on something I like to move.

So we got engaged three months later.

Oh gee.

and we got married between year one and year two of the corps.

Oh

my gosh.

It was certainly a whirlwind.

Listen, I'm married to a TFA Corps member, right?

So first of all, you show, you show great judgment, but you move faster than we did.

that's amazing.

So we, We're kind of thinking about what was

next after, our core commitment.

And, I had the opportunity to join TFA staff here in Indie.

so it was, it was very exciting to get home.

I genuinely thought, and, had conversations with my wife

about how, we'll probably do this for two or three years and then

we'll figure out something else.

and here we are over 15 years later, still, still committed to

the city and the, work of providing all kids, with a great education.

So after my time on TFA staff, joined the mayor's office as

the charter schools director.

so the unique thing about Indianapolis is that the mayor is the major authorizer.

So, really had the opportunity to see firsthand what high quality authorizing

looks like, in the intersection between high quality schools and politics.

and learned a lot from the mayor.

He was a. 20 year retired Marine who had a no nonsense way of leading.

He would hire people, he would give them clear expectations, and

then he would get outta their way.

and, it was kind of a trial by fire and, and learned a ton when

he chose not to run for reelection.

I was, really thinking about what's next.

and had the opportunity to join the MIND Trust just over 10 years ago now.

and then have been the CEO for just about seven and a half years.

and we are celebrating our 20th anniversary.

amazing.

and our, super excited about the impact that we've collectively made here in Indy.

and are thinking about how do we, get towards this north star of a system of

autonomous, highly accountable schools that are, as high quality as possible

and our responsive to our community and really excited to work towards

that vision here in the next few years.

Love that using the term North Star.

That's fantastic.

Whatever.

We're not, we won't skip to that.

We'll hold that for a little while here.

But, look, a part of the, framing for this is around courage and advocacy

and, I, i, look, you've heard me say it too directly and you've probably heard

bang shots, just the courageousness that you have shown in recent years,

I just think is, is incredible.

and that's why I wanted to talk with you.

I also wanna be tone right on.

Courage generally within our space because, there are many people

that are already demonstrating high levels of courage.

I think courage is something that's been a hallmark of the charter school

movement going back 30 years now.

And I also don't wanna suggest that the responsibilities for courageousness fall

un proportionately on the shoulders of the CEOs of advocacy organizations, or

even within advocacy organizations at all.

school leaders are showing courageousness over and over again.

Parents are, other employees are funders are too, when they get

called out from time to time.

So, I do at the same time, I do believe that we're probably in a moment

when a chapter of even additional courageousness is necessary, but I

wanted to like start with that framing that, hey, courage is something we need

to be thinking about, but we don't do.

So from a perspective of, of deficit.

any, any just general reactions on the framing here?

'cause I'd, love to go from there, but I think it also would be good

to hear your observations on that.

Yeah, no, I, I, I totally think that's the right frame.

I was actually thinking, as I was trying to prep for this conversation about, if

you think about the three decades plus of charter schooling across the country,

just the multitude of courageous examples of, true leadership, right?

So from the early years and, all the school founders who had to scrap and claw

to even get those schools launched, we're now, 20 years into the reforms in New

Orleans, which not only transformed Yeah.

That community through courageous leadership, right?

But have, really inspired cities across the country.

To really emulate that courage.

So I couldn't agree more with you that there are examples of courage

all across our sector, and I also agreed that the time that we're in

right now demands even more of it.

So, kind of whatever we can do in Indy to, share the lessons, the wins, the,

the challenges, to kind of light a fire with, more courageous leaders out there.

I get, I get really excited to think about that impact.

Alright, great.

Thank you for that.

So then also some other more framing and some context.

Can you talk to us about what the progress that was made in this last year?

There have been articles and there have been comments in a variety of

different contexts saying that what happened in Indiana last year that may

be the strongest, legislative session we've ever seen any single state have.

There are people that will argue that left and right.

Let's just, say that it's certainly among the most important, sessions

that we've had in terms of just sheer volume of breakthrough.

So would you mind just sharing with listeners who may not be

acquainted with all the detail, or at least the resonant detail?

The salient detail, what was the amount of progress

that was made last year?

Yeah, so it's, it's what I've started calling the kitchen sink.

Session.

I mean, there, there was a, there was a lot going on.

So, to kind of just, just quickly sum it up, I think that the biggest

accomplishment was, getting to the finish line around sharing local

property taxes, which our school students there is a $7,900 per student funding

disparity between charter students and indie and their school district peers.

It's unacceptable.

It's just ab absolutely unacceptable.

And there's been, I would say incremental progress now for a few years, primarily

Local levies also had to be shared.

2025 meant we have to get rid of the gap.

something that a lot of advocates, not just me, a lot of advocates

have been working for years on.

secondly, which something that's a little bit more wonky, but I am actually equally

as excited about, and something that the mine trust has been, you know, trying

to pursue now for about 15 years, the ability for, schools within a community

to come together to create an independent facility and transportation authority.

Yeah.

So now that local resources will start to flow to, you know, more

kids, we have to think about, okay, so how can we expand access?

How can we rethink managing facilities and transportation

and separating the management of transportation and facilities?

From the education of kids.

and I'm excited this got some news last week.

I'm excited that, 54 charter schools in Indy all came together to submit

an application to the state to create this new infrastructure.

That's great.

Amazing.

and we're, we're, we're optimistic that that's going to be

approved to, move forward a multi-year design process, you know, to really figure

out what does infrastructure look like to manage those two operational components.

And then hopefully that new entity would actually have the ability

to levy property taxes as well.

third in the same bill, there was the creation of what is called the

Indianapolis Local Education Alliance.

So this is a nine member advisory group.

The majority of whom are appointed by the mayor of Indianapolis.

Who you, you'll remember, is also the major authorizer.

Yeah.

in the task of this group is to come up with a series of legislative

recommendations by December.

Would reimagine the structure of our school district.

So, you know, rethinking transportation and facilities, but also rethinking

school district governance, rethinking school autonomy.

So we'll kind of see where this goes the next few months.

And I don't have a crystal ball, but the North star of a system of autonomous

schools, you know, led by nonprofit boards who have a performance contract with an

authorizer in the moral imperative to scale that up to as many kids as possible.

You can imagine how that, you know, how a,

How a piece of that vision, right, could see its way into these recommendations.

So really excited that the community has a chance for local civic leaders

to come together to chart the course.

And then hopefully our legislature will be responsive to that.

last, which kind of flew under the radar 'cause there were so much

going on, but actually has had the, the most impact already is a simple,

Two sentence zoning reform that pretty much says a school of all types is

approved in all zoning districts.

Which means that once a charter school gets its charter, it's a golden ticket.

Yeah.

Zoning, is no longer an issue, and zoning can no longer be a weapon used

to prevent the opening of a new school.

That law in and of itself with charter schools and private

schools has already paved the way for eight to 10 schools to open.

Unbelievable,

of course, of the past two months.

So we were starting to see zoning used as a weapon, and there was one

case in particular in our city that was egregious and that motivated some

legislators to, you know, really.

Think about that policy change, and it kind of flew under the

radar during session, but it's already paying huge dividends.

Yeah.

I remember when you first told me about that.

It was in a total, oh, by the way, that zoning thing, and I believe,

you had connected with Utah and you had lifted the language from Utah.

So now we have two states that have it, but there has been states that

have been working on that issue as the number one issue forever.

And, and you have made that, and it's the fourth thing that you

mentioned, you know, in the, in the progress that was made last year.

So, just incredible.

Congratulations.

It wasn't in fact an incre, a great session.

I'd love for you to talk a little bit, if you could give us a backstage pass.

About how this happened.

CharterFolk Readers may remember that about this time last year, I went out

to Indiana, spent some significant time there, did a whole Indianapolis

series of posts and all that stuff.

You took me out for this shrimp dinner that I'll never, forget.

And, and you let me flap my gums for a very long time because you

were talking about, Hey, we're gonna do something big next year.

And then I've told everybody, everything that I shared with

Brandon, he completely and utterly it.

he took the general spirit of it and then forgot every specific, and

then came up with something smarter.

So, walk us through, give us the backstage pass.

How did something like this actually get done?

So, I actually think our dinner over shrimp cocktail was the night

of the vice presidential debate, because I remember it being on, and we were kind of

watching that, but we were more interested in our conversation about charter schools.

That's right.

That's right.

Yeah.

So, kind of.

Mentioned this earlier, but this was, this session was really a culmination of about

six years of intentional coalition work.

So, the, the core of that coalition was the MIND Trust and the Institute

for Quality Education, which is our statewide school choice political

powerhouse, and a, newly constituted state charter school association.

So that was kind of the three legged stool of the core of the coalition.

and then we also had members of the coalition, that spanned

the geography of Indiana.

So we have a, wealthy, very influential school founder on the, northern end of

our state who, who was in the coalition.

And then we had a, wealthy, very influential school founder in the

south who was also in our coalition.

So knowing that most charters in Indiana are located.

Indy, it's very important for us to get geographic representation so that we

had, real influence with legislators that were kind of, outside the metro area.

Yeah.

So this coalition met, once every two weeks as a group

religiously for six years.

And we're still meeting because there's still a lot of work to be done.

And we had subcommittees, we would yell at each other.

We would argue we would, you know, have to call after a zoom to apologize.

Right.

But it was just a big gnarly family, right.

That, that all had this shared value, but maybe came at it in a variety of ways.

And, you know, through, through all of those conversations, we really

So, You know, one of my reflections is, you know, yes.

Like maybe it took some courage from me and the mind trust, but it took a

lot of courage from a lot of people.

Yeah.

Over the course of time to actually build, you know, the political

constituency to see the wins that we saw.

You know, and I would also say like, you can be the best advocate in the

world, but the legislators are actually the ones who write the bills, right?

Mm-hmm.

They have their name on the bills, they're driving the, and,

and they're taking the heat.

So we just are also blessed with a, group of amazing State house

leaders who have been charter school champions for a long time, and who

were incredible partners this session who, you know, really ended up driving

this thing in, in leading the charge.

And it was an honor for us to be able to, you know, help to surface

some ideas and then, you know, really provide them support along the way.

I'd let, I wanna go in on some of that.

Personal parts of, of, you know, your story here over the last year, before,

can we tie it to some writing that you've done here at, CharterFolk?

it's interesting, you know, you won the Brian's Voice

award for your post-election.

hey, what should reformers be taking from the November election,

which was nominated and ended up being one of the three choices?

I will say there is a little bit of editorial separation here at CharterFolk.

I didn't choose, I didn't know what was going on.

They just did it and I was like, okay, that's great.

I liked that post too.

Actually, if you'd asked me what would've been my favorite Brandon

Brown Post of the last year, it was the second one you wrote last year,

which was about the need for charter school, advocates to not be agnostic

about, about, school, school type.

and so what I wonder is, can you tie that writing to what happened?

Uh, here we've also got this, question about how does the charter

school world get on offense?

We hear it over and over and over again, and I tend to think there's a

real connection be between ending our agnosticism and getting on offense.

Uh, can you just talk about those topics generally?

Yeah.

So this is a topic where I've, I've just shifted, quite frankly,

the last two or three years.

I, my, my kid, I am not, I'm not kidding.

This is a, this is a real story.

So my kids, searched for my name.

I looked a lot younger, of me speaking at a local community association meeting

when I was at the mayor's office.

And I literally used the term school choice agnostic, or no, sorry, literally

use the term school type agnostic.

and, spent, spend a lot of time just to be really frank, apologizing

for the controversy around charter schools and, really talking about

how, schools of all types can be successful, and no one type is, more

successful than the others because I, it was, it was beat into me, Jed, that

that's how you talk about this work.

Yep.

And I, and I have used those phrases, hundreds

of times during my career.

And I gotta, the point a couple years ago where I said, you know what, like,

I've actually devoted my career to this.

I've read the research.

I have, seen this firsthand and I actually have a view that there is

a better way to do public schooling than how we have historically done it.

And charter schooling's not perfect.

Yeah.

But the conditions that charter schools bring to the table, our conditions

that in my community have led to significantly better academic performance.

Every external study, every analysis has led to the same conclusion.

So, I just, kind of said, look, if I'm a charter school advocate, and

if this is all the data, then I'm actually not school type agnostic.

And that does not mean that I hate traditional public schools.

That does not mean that there are not great traditional public schools.

There are,

yeah.

But on the whole, we have a form of public schooling that

unequivocally works in our community.

And, and why would I. Why would I hide that fact?

Yeah.

And

I started thinking, right, if you are a pro-choice or a pro-life advocate,

are you agnostic on abortion?

If you are an advocate that attacks homelessness, are

you agnostic on homelessness?

Right.

You could go down the line, of course not, right?

If you're an advocate, you affirmatively advocate for the thing that you

deeply believe will improve lives.

And you know, I think that same thing applies to the work

of a charter school advocate.

We need to affirmatively advocate for the conditions within charter

schools being applied to more kids.

And if we're unable or unwilling to do that, then we should ask ourselves why.

Yep.

And if we're not able to get to the point where we think

that is a moral imperative, then.

We're either doing charter schooling wrong in a given community and you

know, not actually seeing those results.

Yeah.

Or

maybe we don't have the fire in the belly to actually advocate,

forcefully enough for more kids to be able to get those conditions.

So this is something that I've evolved on over time and, you know, I don't

know if there's a right or wrong answer, but this is how I view it.

And to your point, it directly relates to the legislative wins.

Yep.

The conviction that it took to even propose those ideas in the first place.

Yep.

And then the conviction that it took to see it through the four months

of the session would not have been there if I was school type agnostic.

It just wouldn't have Judd, I probably would've implicitly done

this, but I would've slowed down.

Yep.

And

I would have pumped the brakes.

Yep.

I'm not agnostic on school type.

I believe that this is a moral imperative to scale up this model

to serve more public school kids.

Yeah.

For that reason.

Right.

Come hell or high water, we were gonna see it through.

Yeah.

Well, I've shared with you separately, how during my seventh year at, at CCSA,

I was driving into Oakland for a, a community meeting and I knew there were

gonna be three or 400 people there, and I was gonna be the one charter guy.

and as it turned out, there were CharterFolk in the audience, but

they were there in such small numbers relative to the status quo protectors

that none of them really wanted to stand up, nor did I expect them to stand up.

I knew I was essentially going into this on my own.

And I also, I kind of liked that.

I, I, you know, whatever there are people, I didn't, I didn't consider it a burden.

I considered a part of the job.

The burden for me driving in, in my minivan that I'm still

driving to this darn day was.

I'm just not as crisp in these settings as I want to be.

What?

What am I thinking?

And I really, on that drive, that 80 mile drive.

I grounded on this idea.

What we are really seeking is greatly more public education and the

reason that we like charter schools.

Is because we are examples of what greatly more public education is,

and we're developing the heft to push the public school system to

become greatly more public too.

Yes, to become higher performing as you're talking about, but also to

purge itself of its unfairnesses.

And we as charter school people have no reason to be.

Sheepish in the least about the fact that we want those things, to, to, be erased.

while we do not ever present ourselves as having it all figured out, or,

hey, charter school people are just genetically better than others, other

people in all these situations that are heroes as well, we're trying to

push this overall system to allow them to become even more successful.

Okay.

So, and yet, and yet what we have to put up with, you know, to, to simply,

assert that, so I wouldn't, would you, would you mind just, just sharing a

little bit what your personal experience?

What, like last year?

I mean, look, you look great right now.

I gotta say you look great.

You look like you did a year ago.

I did see you about halfway through this.

I thought you'd lost a lot of weight.

I thought you looked like you lost a lot of sleep.

I can, I guess I can't see your step, so I can't see the spring, but I can

almost, I can sense the spring into your step just by your posture right now.

Talk a little bit about what the experience was like, and, and,

and what's it really require to courageously unapologetically be

agnostic, un agnostic in support of, of charter school, progress.

Yeah.

I mean, it, I think, I think one thing that's really important is, again,

there was, there was a coalition of folks in our city and across the state

who worked hard on this, and that that courage and the sacrifice

was, shared among a lot of people.

And I have a colleague in particular who, is a,

Leader in the black community in our city who, took heat from certain corners of

our community that, she will never go into detail with because it was so bad.

So, one, I I just wanna acknowledge that there were, a lot of people who,

worked, really hard to see this through.

and for whatever reason, I kind of ended up being the face, in

the kind of, maybe public center of a lot of the attacks.

so yeah.

So I think that your observations were right.

I didn't sleep a lot during legislative session.

Mm-hmm.

I realized that I became irritable with my family, more than I would've liked.

my, I broke out significantly kind of all over my face.

Yeah.

The last two months of session.

and it, it.

Wore me down, and it, it showed in, multiple ways.

I was thinking last night, just, sampling of, of the, of

the names that I was called.

And this is a, yeah, this is a very small sample, right?

o obviously I was a racist.

I was a complete piece of shit.

I was a fascist.

the amount of memes that were, floating on social media, that

are just even hard to describe.

They were so bizarre, Mm-hmm.

And I think over time, right.

So you can't shield your kids from all of that.

So they would Yeah.

see some of it, they would hear some of it.

That meant we had to have hard conversations in the evenings, about

what it is that I do at work and, and then there were several moments in

time that, that really stand out at me.

So, one was, the first school board meeting after, one of the bills that we

actually didn't push, but kind of, was, was made public literally on New Year's

Eve while I was driving to a Pacers game.

and it was the bill that got the most national coverage the first month of

the session that would, that would have dissolved IPS and made all

the schools charter schools, that was not driven by the mine trust.

That was not something that we necessarily supported publicly,

but that was the first bill that dropped a week before the session.

and it got a lot of attention.

yeah.

And, and it really was the speaker and the legislative leadership's

attempt to create urgency.

The conversation around sharing local property tax dollars.

Yep.

but that, that kind of set the stage right for four months of vitriol

and like during the game, I was in the stands it al it already started

on social media, and just didn't, didn't relent for about four months.

Well, the next week it was the first, school board meeting of the year for

our district and one of our team members ran into one of the new school board

members at IPS, a community event.

and this was somebody that I had, supported for school board

I had known for a long time.

I considered her a friend and she looked at our staff member and said,

I'm gonna say some really horrible things about your boss tonight.

And that was my cue not to attend or watch a school board meeting

for the entire four months.

Now, I would hear what was set afterwards.

I would, get maybe some clips sent to me.

One of the speakers in that meeting had a giant picture of my face,

and she ripped it up for the camera and she said He is the real enemy.

that was actually one that my team didn't even tell me about until months later.

So that was kind of the, the, the kind of tone and center.

And then if you fast forward about two and a half months, it was a Saturday

morning, I was taking my kids to the gym to play basketball, and I was notified of

a serious threat on my life on Facebook that was accompanied with my home address.

Hmm.

And that was the first time where, like the social media threats didn't

seem real to me until that one, and it just, I just, it just, it

just really hit, really hit home.

Yeah.

So I had a, I had a long conversation that day with my wife and, we were

able to talk with our board and.

Had to get security at our house.

and we started, monitoring social media threats and so that was kind of the

last couple of months of the session.

and then the last kind of thing that really sticks out to me is it was

the day of the floor vote and the Senate for the property tax sharing.

Bill and I came to the State House, and just got, just got accosted

by a mob of union folks, who just said the most vile things and they,

just like had a camera in my face.

They were, streaming it live on social media.

Were just saying crazy things and, and for the first time I felt like I was a

distraction at State House and I just made the decision to leave that day.

and then a few weeks later I was, I was driving in for the committee

hearing on the facilities and transportation bill, and I got a call

from our VP of policy while I was on my way to the State House and.

She said, Hey, boss, probably shouldn't come in today, because you're gonna get

swarmed and it's gonna be a distraction.

And that was the one time where I, I think I almost started crying in the car.

And I was like, man, I can't even show my face at the State House.

And I literally turned around and I went back to the office,

and then from there on, only went to the State House when I had a

private meeting with a legislator that was not gonna be in public.

Right.

So, just kind of three specific examples of a, of a series of, real

challenges over four months that you knew this was gonna be hard, but you

didn't really, know the extent of it until you actually experienced it.

So much so that your board said to you this summer,

wouldn't it be good if you could get some time to charge your batteries?

Am I, am I accurate in that?

Yes.

And thank God, mm-hmm.

that's another thing too, like.

Our board was so good during all of this.

They, knew the plan.

They, they agreed with the plan and they were steadfast, that we were,

that we were not gonna back down and then whatever, me and the team needed

to feel supported along the way.

They were, just, just tremendous, And I, and I think that's one of my reflections

too, like, this couldn't have happened without, the leadership of our board

without the leadership of, civic leaders in the community who might not have been

out front, but certainly had our back.

And, certainly we're not gonna get weak need.

Yeah.

just because left wing socialists, like made this their

recruitment issue this year.

Right.

so it was, it was, really good to hear every once in a while from

big time leaders in our community, who might not have been public

on this issue, but we're sending,

Notes of encouragement were, randomly making a phone call on a Wednesday

afternoon just to ask how you were doing.

And

Yep.

That kind of leadership in our community was, was quiet and, not seen broadly,

but it was, extremely impactful for me.

And really at the heart of it, you, you get called all these

things, you endure this treatment because you had the temerity to

suggest that charter school students should be funded at the same level

as other public school students.

Isn't that the crux of it?

And, and essentially being willing to just say that unapologetically is what resulted

in this kind of treatment coming your way.

Am I right?

That's

right, that's right.

At the core of it, that's what we were advocating for.

The reality is that within ipss geography, 68% of black students,

65% of low income students.

60% of Latino students attend charter schools and they're being discriminated

against the tune of $8,000 a kid.

All we were asking for is for those kids to be treated fairly, and we

were willing for it to be phased in.

Over time.

We, we were willing to make accommodations to ensure that the

existing incumbent system, have the ability to transform itself as well.

But at its core, what we were advocating for is let's treat all kids fairly.

And in this case, the students that we were advocating for were

historically marginalized kids.

So, yes, it is ironic that those were the accusations.

when you think about what it was that we were actually advocating for,

one of the most bewildering discussions I had to have again

and again, was with our own base, with our own funders, maybe some

advocacy partners that would just suggest that we were to us them.

Can't you find a way to get this done without becoming, as us them

as you're reported to be right now?

And boy, that was challenging.

And I know that you had your moments too, perhaps in Indianapolis, I think

across the entire country where, what I would describe as CharterFolk, people

from our own world, our own reform world, saying, Brandon, what are you doing?

Uh, you're making things worse there.

There's a toxic narrative that is coming out of this that really

was all but a verbatim, repeat of the us them conversations I had.

Am am I right that in fact many in our own world, saw what you

were doing in, in those terms?

Yeah.

So we got, a lot of feedback in particular the first month when it

became, clear what the agenda was.

And, I would say that it was mixed.

It got a, lot of notes of encouragement.

a lot of folks were, super excited about.

What we were doing.

And then I would say, generally third hand, Jed, I would hear

that, not everybody agreed.

And you know what, at the end of the day, that's fine.

And, I think that we actually listened to multiple voices, and, tried to use

that to refine what we were doing.

One thing that was instilled in me when I joined the MIND Trust, and one thing

that I've tried to carry with me in this role is we value our funders and

we see them as partners in this work.

And we're gonna go them with, challenges, what's going well

and what's not going well.

There's never gonna be a surprise.

So, all of our major funders, knew our strategy well in advance, and

have the opportunity to weigh in.

But it's also really important to be in the mind trust that we're

gonna pursue our theory of change in the way that we and our community

believe it should be pursued.

And we're gonna take feedback from all comers, but we're not going to prioritize

a funder's feedback over somebody else.

And we're not going to change what we're doing solely based on

what we're hearing from funders.

And I think, if you end up developing a track record of being honest

and upfront following throughout on what you say you're gonna do,

you don't have to win every time.

But as long as that translates into.

Wins over time, then ultimately, I think that that puts you in a

stronger position with funders.

Yeah.

versus you kind of blowing with the wind, depending on who you talked

to last and, many of the critics who thought we were being too brash and,

a little bit too, too far out there.

we're also very quick to celebrate the wins.

Right.

to let us know, how amazing the progress was, and how they're with us.

Right.

So, ultimately I think it takes a level of confidence that, everybody's not

going to agree with you, and that's fine.

You don't need the support, but you gotta be convicted in what you're doing and you

gotta be grounded in your local context.

And look, we're 20 years into this with mine trust.

Like

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

This was a methodical, intentional.

Two decade long effort.

Yeah.

That started well before me and those conditions ended up

Yep.

To go back.

Right.

So it would've been foolish for us to do, you know, any of the

scope of what happened this year until the conditions were right.

So you actually, you know, also have to be opportunistically

patient to wait for the window.

But once the window opens.

I've learned you gotta sprint and you gotta sprint as hard as you can because

that window's gonna close eventually.

And you don't wanna look back one day and say, damn, I wish we would've

sprinted harder while we have that

window open.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So as we started the discussion, trying to encourage us to step into

another level of courageousness, there's courage all over the place.

you know, I consider my posse, the, you know, my closest posse, the

CEOs of these state associations.

And, you know, I just stand in, in just real awe and respect for what

these folks are bringing to this work.

and their jobs are impossible and I love 'em and all that.

Okay.

and also I feel like there's another level of courageousness that's needed

and I'm just trying to like, unpack.

What it is that might be holding us back from that, that next chapter,

let, would you mind if I just pause it a few things and then just see

which of them most resonate with you?

Yeah.

One of them is a sense that the charter school

world is vulnerable right now.

We're politically vulnerable right now, and if we do anything that is

controversial, by definition, we're gonna be sacrificing a few other supporters.

And so if you're an advocate and you're out there doing something

controversial, by definition you, you must be bad at your job.

You must be unwise.

That, that's, that's one.

A second one.

And this gets to be more city specific than state specific.

though I can probably point to a few state examples as well, but

a lot of our city people, they used to work in school districts.

Yeah, they used to have, or, or some of their closest friends are there

still, or they have a theory of change that requires the district to do

something in partnership terms as well.

And so if the full critique is, is asserted well, people feel as

though that's gonna damage the relationship, it's gonna make the

district less likely to work with us.

I think there are other places where there's just a simple

reflexive risk aversion.

Just risk aversion generally.

and also I don't feel like, especially the boards of our

advocacy organizations, it sounds like the Mindt Trusts board had

had this conversation in advance.

Yes, we knew what was going and we knew this was gonna be risky, but we're

consciously willing to take that risk.

I feel like some boards just don't really talk about, are we consciously

choosing less risk 'cause that's the wise thing to do, or are we simply avoiding

it because we don't wanna take on, you know, that level of stress right now.

So those are three things I posit, maybe you can comment all three of 'em, or maybe

you can comment on the one that like most re you know, most resonates with you.

What.

What, what might be preventing us from taking that next step of courageousness?

Yeah, so I think your point about relationships is, is

really important and it's resonant.

So we actually have a long history of working very closely with our

school district here in Indianapolis.

you know, about 40% of our charters are actually in close

partnership with our district.

and the superintendent is a TFA alum.

She was a school leader at kipp.

She was the architect of much, much of the innovation schoolwork.

you know, I've been good friends with her now for over 15 years.

She, she onboarded me into my first job at TFA, deeply love and respect Alicia.

And the reality is like we haven't agreed on on much the last few years and, Right.

That's hard.

And it's.

You know, I, I, I, you know, feel it in my bones sometimes.

and there are a lot of relationships like that at the school district.

there are a lot of relationships like that on the school board.

There are relationships like that at the legislature.

I know many democrats personally, who I have deep, deep, deep respect for

who voted in the Senate to close 70% of charter schools because they were mad

about the property tax sharing bill.

so the reality is you, when you get into advocacy, those relationships

are actually really important.

And I think that they can be a strength.

I think they can also be to your detriment.

and I think as a society, I'm not gonna make any grand political

announcements here, but we've collectively lost the ability to

separate the policy from the person.

And we've forgotten that we can vehemently disagree with somebody on a policy and

still love and respect them as a person.

And I can't speak from my friends at IPS, but I deeply love and

respect a lot of people at IPS.

Yeah.

Right.

And we actually probably agree on a lot of things.

Yep.

But the last few years we haven't agreed on the big things.

Yep.

And this is just a season that you have to be ready for and that's hard.

It's like one thing to say that you like over a drink or it's one thing

to say it, when you're interviewing for these jobs, it's another thing

to actually do it when you're in it and live with the consequences of.

Either, harming long-term relationships or potentially losing them forever.

And you just have to be okay with that.

And it's lonely, right?

Yeah.

And you, and you feel like the whole world's against you.

They're not, you feel like, everybody in your community's out to get you.

It's a small number of people.

Yeah.

Right.

And you just have to keep perspective.

And then I feel strongly about this, when all is said and done, I'm

gonna get a drink with Alicia and we're gonna have a great conversation.

Right.

And we're gonna look back and say, look, that was rough.

That was, that was, that was really hard.

But ultimately, because of the give and take and because of the work on

all sides, like, kids are better off.

Yeah.

And I, I strongly believe that I, I also think kind of politically

just brass tacks politics, right?

A lot of the opportunities I think are in blue cities and red states,

which means that an effective city-based advocate, you have to have

relationships on the right and the left.

Right?

Yep.

'cause in a Blue City and Red State Power is held locally by Democrats

and at the state level Republicans.

Yep.

And in Indy we're kind of, we're kind of unique, but I think it's replicable the

fact that the mayor's office has been the major charter school authorizer.

Yeah.

And, you know, most of our mayors have been Democrat.

Yeah.

has really made it okay to be a local, elected official in

power with a d next to your name.

Yeah.

Actively support charter schools.

It also helps that the teacher's union doesn't really play in local elections

here, so they're more, you know, free to vote their conscience, where that's

not the case for the State House, but.

We have great close relationships on the left and the right at the Mind trust.

And I think some of that is because we try as hard as we can, not to view

ourselves as a member of a political party first and the charter advocate second.

Yep.

Advocate for great schools first.

Yep.

And we try to ask the question, what is the political

coalition to get to where we want to go?

Yeah.

And,

and we do want to be agnostic on if it's right, left, or center, because

this is ultimately is about power and it's about who holds power where.

And in a blue city and red state, it's a forcing mechanism to ensure

that you've got relationships on all sides of the aisle.

And that you are thinking strategically around how do you build

the coalition to get you the win.

And I think that's gotta be separate from relationships, because if it's

not, then you're gonna get paralyzed and you're gonna always be scared of

your own shadow because you're gonna be afraid of making somebody upset with you.

I wanna come to this, question of blue, red and to,

and to what extent we, what we might have learned in Indianapolis.

Is transportable to other environments.

Where is it not?

Lemme just make one comment about personal relationships.

Ray Cortina, former superintendent at LA Unified and kind of an ed reform

hero, he, he became my mentor at some point, and I will do any, you know,

I just, I would do anything for Ray.

He had done so many great things for me.

And he also was appointed back into LA Unified as superintendent the

same week that they announced that I had become the CEO at, at CCSA.

So he had me up to Pasadena to his favorite restaurant, and I sat down

and we had, you know, we just, we were already very friendly with each other and

I congratulated him on having been chosen to run the largest CMO in Los Angeles.

And, the laughter, the bellowing laughter across this restaurant, everybody turned

and said, what's going on with this guy?

But I will say.

One of the hardest calls I ever made professional calls, at least, in my

life, was to tell Ray that we were suing Los Angeles Unified on Prop 39.

That was after years of him doing other, other things, especially on

special ed, courageous on special ed, and all, some, some other things

but on this Prop three nine piece, the district simply wasn't doing it.

And that's what we had to do.

And I will say it had a long-term effect on, on raising my relationship that I

still kind of regret to this, to this day.

And yet I know that's a part of what was expected of me, given

that I was, I was in that role.

but.

Conditions are different.

Conditions really are different.

I don't think you and I are, are suggesting that what's going

on in Indianapolis is gonna work in New York City is gonna work in Los

Angeles, especially blue context.

Right.

where blue cities within blue states, but there may be some things

here that you do think are transportable.

what, what would you share on that topic?

Yeah.

I, I've, I've written a bit on this too.

I just firmly believe, and it's, and it's not actually rocket science,

that to, to advance charter school policy in a red state, you have to be

in a broad school choice coalition.

And that doesn't, mean that, charter advocates have to ascribe

to, everything relative to.

Vouchers and ESAs.

It doesn't, mean that, but it does mean for you to be successful in a

red state, you, you almost certainly have to be in coalition with the

folks that have the most influence and power at the state level.

And, since, since COVID that politically has oftentimes been

with private school choice.

but it's, it's interesting the number of charter school policy wins the last few

years has been enormous and it's grown.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I reject the notion that private school choice advancements

come at the expense of charter schools.

I actually don't think we have any evidence of that.

I actually think it can be an accelerant if you create the right coalition.

Yeah.

And you're smart about it.

Yeah.

So I think, one thing in red, that's what I'm,

that's one of, of starling's refrains again and again,

that, you don't see this as either or that accelerant may the best and, and,

and, so then the question is, okay, so if, so if,

so if you're a city-based advocate.

Who is in a deep blue context, which most of us are.

How do you, how do you then influence that, that kind of, right of Center

School Choice Coalition that is the opposite political base, right.

That you're dealing with every day in your city.

And that's hard.

And I think it became harder, quite frankly, in the age of Trump, because

you've got a lot of folks in the charter.

We are, we are very politically homogenous.

We've got a lot of good Democrats who, who don't want to be associated.

Republicans because of, what that might mean and the

connections that, might be made.

And I look, I understand that I can, I completely only completely

understand that, but in a blue city, in a red state, that is going to

be inherent in the work that we do that is gonna be there regardless.

you're gonna be called a shill for billionaires regardless of how

hard you go for charter schools.

Yep.

You're probably gonna be called a racist regardless of what policies you propose.

Hmm.

So

all of that stuff, in a sense, Jed in my opinion, is kind of built in to the job.

So if that's built into the job, then why not create the coalitions that are

gonna get you the influence that you need to advance your agenda for kids.

And I think ultimately that is understandably really hard for people

who live in a blue city who, who.

Friend group, all lean one way.

And then the reality is, for you to be successful at the state level, you have

to create coalition with folks who might disagree with you on 95% of the issues.

Yeah.

And who might, that association then might, feel a certain way in

your social circles, et cetera.

So I, so I, so I think it's really hard, and I don't wanna say, that it's easy

to overcome, but I do think there are a lot of blue cities and red states,

like Indianapolis and others that have shown that you can actually do both.

Yeah.

You can have great local relationships with Democrats and

still be a part of a school choice coalition at the State House.

So what do you have to s say to people in blue cities and blue states?

Uh, is it, Hey, you'd have to run a completely and utterly different strategy.

are there aspects of what you have done that you think would

work a any, any thoughts there?

I actually, and I don't know, maybe I'm,

maybe I'm just an optimist, but.

I think that there's such an opportunity right now for

Democrats and charter schools.

the Democrats are, are losing many people of color at, record speeds,

the fact that they are now the party of the status quo in education and

the fact that Republicans have gone all in with private school choice.

What I mean, what a window of opportunity for smarter people than me in blue

states to figure out how to square that.

And how to make charter schools the reform or a piece of the reform set.

Yeah.

That the Democrats re-embrace.

I think that there is a political incentive for them to do it.

I think that there's an incentive to distinguish themselves from Republicans

and to draw the line here and not here.

Yeah.

I think that there, you know, are a lot of really smart, hungry advocates

in blue states that can, make, make, make those connections for them.

So I'm actually long term, really bullish on charter schools and blue states.

Yeah.

'cause I think that the politics are converging in a way where it makes

the incentive structure very clear and there's a rationale now for

Democrats to rebrace charter schools more than there has been since Obama.

Yeah.

So I, agree with you entirely.

I do think.

I think that courage and political acumen really matter here

because conditions are different.

You could do something that's counterproductive, but my sense

is that there's an opportunity for us to drive a narrative.

One of the things that drives me the most crazy about the charter

school experience in a lot of cities is we might win some school board

elections, and then we'll essentially go quiet on, on policy matters.

maybe every, there'll be a few charters to vote on

renewals and stuff like that.

Maybe a one facility issue or something like that.

But there really isn't that much discussion at all it during that quiet.

The other side of course, calls, charter schools a billionaire,

plot everything, two years of just charter schools are toxic.

And then we go back to those same school board members and say,

will you please step out and be, supportive of charter schools?

And they're like, are, are you kidding me?

Just, I love you.

I love you, but I'm gonna pretend that I don't.

The question for me is how do we drive a narrative between

elections in those places?

And that's where I think our critique really matters.

And one of the things I talking to CharterFolk, a lot of them are like,

please, please drive a better narrative.

But they feel it can be done with positive stories.

Maybe we do a few, publications, placements, but I just have to tell

them as Heartbreakingly, difficult as it is, we're not gonna drive

narrative with anything other than the policy agendas we attempt to advance.

And in blue context, if we really uncover the charter school recipe, it

resonates deeply with Blue State values.

Yes.

The question is, can we bring those things in between elections?

so I mean, I think you and I have talked about this.

I know we're kindred spirits on this kind of, but provide some nuance here.

Yeah.

So I learned actually in a different context early in my career from a mentor

that communications follows substance.

That a communications plan void of being in service to what you wanna

accomplish is just a waste of time.

And I, I think a lot about all the national conferences that a

lot of us go to and all of the sessions on, how can we communicate

charter schools more effectively?

And the amount of money spent on message testing and polls

and all that stuff's important.

But almost all of those conversations, in my experience, are void of

the central question, what is it that we want to accomplish?

And then our communication strategy ought to be in service to accomplishing

the policy goals that we've established, not the other way around.

Right?

It shouldn't be the tail wagging the dog.

So I think sometimes our communication strategies, like might have a

lot of real data behind them.

They might sound really good in, like a focus group, but what

are they in service towards?

Just like school board elections.

What does a school board election victory mean?

If it doesn't relate, if it doesn't translate into real policy change.

So if a school board is supposed to be a reform school board and then

votes on a charter school moratorium, they're not a reform school board.

Right?

Yeah.

So this is true in a lot of places, and it's not even it know necessarily

a critique on the organizations that are working to get people elected.

But it's a mindset shift that we can't, in my mind, message

our way to, a proactive win.

We can't get people elected and sit on our hands for two years, and

then ask them what they did for us.

Yeah.

We actually have to have, and I printed it out and I know that this is gonna

look really corny, but like start, I said that to my team yesterday and I

printed it out, but like, you gotta start with what's the vision, what's the,

I don't care what you call it, right?

So the North star, the vision, whatever it is, there's gotta

be something there that is.

Bold and that is inspiring.

And then as you said, you have to actually figure out, okay,

what's the implementation plan?

What's the agenda to help us effectuate the vision?

Yeah.

And then let's create messaging and a comms plan, in an

outreach strategy around that.

rather than pull test our way to a certain set of key phrases.

Be scared as hell to say the phrase Charter school.

Yeah.

And then, message your way to nothing.

So I, I just couldn't agree more that you gotta start with substance, you gotta

start with Vision North Star policy.

And then let's figure out, how to develop a messaging strategy.

That will make it more possible to achieve our North Star?

Well, I could be wrong.

There could be other, north Stars that I'm just not giving enough credit to.

but I do as, stay on the land, look on the outlook, Hey, where are they?

Uh, and you guys, you guys clearly have one in Indianapolis.

I think it's just astonishing.

I also think that the MIND Trust has now.

More than a decade.

I can go back through, the Indianapolis Star and I can find you

guys on a one over and over again.

And I also can see the editorials and the, and the letters to the

editor that were written thereafter.

Almost every time that the, my trust was on the A one with some bold

effort to reform the, the school district, the response was always,

how dare you, are you kidding me?

Just the fury that came against the folks.

And then you look two years later, they're taking steps in that very direction.

And this is where I think the courage thing really matters.

'cause it's the courage to ride through this, the 12 to 18 months

of being the anathema in town, to have the sense of confidence though

that on the other side of that.

A more receptive audience awaits us.

can you add your, any other, addition you would offer to what

the value of a North Star would be in different, in different places?

Yeah.

So I, so I think that's really right and I think a lot about the concept

of an, of an Overton window where you have to expand the universe of

what people think is mainstream and what people think is actually Yeah.

Oh, I love that.

I love that.

Right?

a system of autonomous schools that are held accountable, blah, blah, blah, blah,

Was honestly.

Yeah.

it would've been met with ridicule and laughs and, oh, that's cute.

and then you think about the Opportunity Schools report that we

It called for Opportunity Schools, which a few years later became Innovation Schools.

Sure.

And it called for the mayor to be in charge of IPS, which is now on the table

as the Indianapolis Local Education Alliance manages through its work.

They literally had to lock the doors of the mine trust and like leave

for a couple days when they released it because people hated it so much.

Right.

And again, even in, even in reform circles, oh, that's cute.

another idea by the mind trust not gonna happen, but.

You expand the Overton window, you expand what can be mainstreamed, what

can be possible, and you do it over time and then you just chunk it out, right?

Yeah.

And then you get to a point where 20, 25 years later, it might seem like a

full generation, but you've collectively and methodically transformed a system.

And I think that's, that's what a North Star means to me.

It's not like, here's our legislative agenda, or it's not, like, here's

our three year, strap plan.

It's what's our 20 year vision for what's possible for public

school students in our community?

And let's drive towards it year after year after year after year to expand the

Overton window, to expand what's possible.

And eventually you wake up and you're holy crap.

we're getting, really close to this thing.

And it turns out it's not that controversial when you get down to the

impact it has on kids and families.

Yeah.

if you pull, charter school is in Indy, right?

Overwhelmingly positive in particularly families that we're serving.

So you also have to put into context those loud voices that called me names

and put crazy things on social media are a fraction of 1% of our community.

Right?

Yeah.

They're, they're definitely not the parents that we're serving.

So, so you just also gotta put the noise in context.

And if you have a north star and if you're convicted about that North

star, you just gotta drive through it.

Yeah.

And just continue to make progress over time.

That progress will snowball and it will result in, something

really big and meaningful.

But it's certainly not gonna happen over a year or two or three.

It's gonna happen over time, maybe even a generation's worth of time.

And that's how systemic change happens, in my opinion.

and it's how it can be sustainable as well, right?

It's not one, it's not one superintendent, it's not one CEO of the mind trust.

It's not one elected official.

This is a community.

Driven change process over years, that results in something

much better on the other side.

Brandon, I think this is exactly the right place to end this.

you've, just been so, courageous over the last year.

I think you're also been very helpful in the last hour to help us understand

what the experience is like and encouraging us to do new things.

So I just wish you well.

I can't wait to see what you do next in Indianapolis, and I also can't wait

to see what you do next in terms of helping other charter school advocates

across the country take that un agnostic, standpoint, which is likely going to put

just new octane in the charter school movement, for, for many years yet to come.

So, any last thoughts you wanna share or otherwise I just wanna say thank you.

No, you know, I just, I just really appreciate you and the work

that you're doing to give a microphone to CharterFolk across the country.

I mean, I, I, I'm not just saying this because.

If you ask me on your podcast, but you know, CharterFolk is the voice of

the national charter school movement.

It just is.

And, you know, you, you giving that microphone out to leaders across the

country and, is if, if you weren't doing it would not be happening.

If, and you were one of those people that every week or so would

send me a text of encouragement and you would say, do not call me.

I know that you're busy, but I just wanted you to know I'm thinking about

you and I'm really proud of you.

And it's that, it's that kind of comradery and community that, you

know, keeps a lot of folks going.

So I just wanted say thanks for all you do.

you know, all of the advice and counsel that you're giving to advocates across

the country and for creating space for there to be a, a true national

charter school movement that, you know, has a place, to come and to share.

Really bold ideas.

So thank you.

Thank you so much for that, Brandon.

You touched me with that.

and as you know, we're all at each other's backs, and the courage that we bring is so

important and so many people are doing it.

So thank you for being an example of it, and thank you for

encouraging others to do the same.

Thanks.