Huge Opportunity Amid Disruption: CharterFolk Chat with Marlon Marshall

Marlon Marshall, welcome to Charterfolk. Terrific to have you.

I appreciate you having me, Jed. Good to be here for the first time, hopefully first of many.

Hey, that's great. We've talked about it a few times, so it's nice to have it happen. And the monthly Charterfolk chats are something that people are looking forward to.

And I know you're one of these figures in the charter school landscape that a lot of people have questions about, curiosity about. So thank you for spending the time. You know, I think that it might be good just to start a bit with your, with your background.

I myself have had educators in my past. My dad was a principal, my mom was a teacher. And I know your mom was.

Do you mind just like saying what your educational experience was and you know, what, how you would sum up your experiences as a student in framing your work now as the CEO at Citi Fund?

Absolutely. First and foremost, I appreciate you, like I said, but also just want to thank subscribers, listeners.

If you're, if you're subscribed to Charterfolk, you're more than likely either really care about the issue or you are knee deep in the trenches. And so if you're, if you're knee deep in the trenches, it's only possible. This work's only possible because they're doing that.

So thank you to everybody who's listening to this right now and doing the work on behalf of kids across this country and families. I grew up in St. Louis, Missouri. I was the third of three kids. My sisters were 12 years older than me and nine years older than me.

And then all of a sudden, woohoo. I showed up and I bring that up because my mom put them through the traditional public school system in a suburb of St. Louis. That was okay.

It wasn't great, wasn't terrible. It was okay.

And my mom, meanwhile, since coming out of college, she went to Lincoln University in Jefferson City, Missouri, was a fourth and fifth grade public school teacher from the day she stepped foot out of college to the day she retired over 10, 12 years ago now. So having those experiences, my sisters who both end up doing great things, but she just saw the public school system.

She saw it when she was in the district in St. Louis proper teaching. She just said, this is not what I want to do.

Nine years later when I came along, she was like, we got to do something a little bit different. I went to a, so I went to pre K, kindergarten, all that good stuff. And then I went to a private school from first to sixth grade.

It's called Community School in the suburb of St. Louis. It was a amazing and al interesting experience. I was the only African American kid in my class.

It was a small class of 30, but I got a very, very great education. I was like reading at a very young age. So my mom was laser focused on that.

While I was at that school, my dad got a job as a custodian at a school district called Ladue, which is also in the suburbs of St. Louis. And so I was able to go to there for junior high and high school. One of the best districts in the state of Missouri.

At the time, Missouri had desegregation, so Ladoo was a big mix of folks. You had folks who lived in the district. You had kids, mostly African American, who were busting from the city.

And then you had a few, not many, a few of me. Where I didn't live in the district, I wasn't.

I didn't come from the city, but my dad worked for the district, so I was able to attend the school there.

It was a little bit challenging at the very beginning where I didn't know where to really fit in culturally with a lot of students because I had a different experience coming in there.

But after a couple years, I actually think they helped me grow into the leader I am today in terms of working with all types of people, working with all types of cultures, and just really having, you know, my parents were able to exercise choice in a way that made sense for me. You know, 30 years ago. Can go more there, but left there, had a great experience, and then went to the University of Kansas.

I wore that on purpose even though we lost, I guess, Arizona last night. And that's where I just kind of. I went there. Think I was gonna be an engineering major.

And when I was in college, I was in Engineering School 2 1/2 years in doing great. Somebody asked me to run for student senate.

And I got the bug when I started doing government on campus and realizing what the power of relationships can do to make change on a single campus, and was student by vice president, university, etc.

And so both the experience from, you know, going to a private school, then a public school that had a mix of folks, then going to university and learning a little bit of leadership skills, I think just helped me learn how to work with people.

And I changed my major two and a half years into communication studies because I just said, I want to pile this political bug and see where it takes me. I which my mom at the time was like, what are you doing? Go work at Microsoft. And I Did. And I changed into communication studies. Finished there.

And then a couple years after school found myself my first campaign. So can go more than that a little bit. But the education piece of everything really set me on the path to where I am today.

And it all started from my mom being that public school educator, really having her own opinion and knowing of the system, working first to get basically a scholarship for me to go to that private school, figuring out how to. For me to get into a public school that she thought was good but necessarily wasn't the one I lived in.

So the choice piece really stuck with me from the first on. I remember when I was in college, I was just like. And seeing how my mom had to use her own resources when she was teaching for school.

But then I'm at this school that has computers and all the whatnot. I was like, these inequities don't make sense to me. And is there something I can do about it?

And so I actually got involved in the political part to try to change elected officials first and then love that. Many years later I found myself on this and here at City Farm.

Well, I spent seven years in the classroom, six of them as a fifth grade teacher and one as a four or five split. So like your mom, I'm a elementary school teacher, fourth and fifth grade. I'll try not to go, you know, totally maternal on you here.

Let's dive back in. The St. Louis story is fascinating to me. I do have a son now who's going to School in St. Louis. And everywhere I go I tend to wear.

I wear the Charterfolk lens and I look at the landscape. I describe it as one of those stereo view posters where if you look at it with the right focus, the 3D image leaps off the poster.

And once you see it, you can't believe that anybody else can't see it. I go to St. Louis and all I do is I look out in the way and the things pop out and I. And say every. I will say every city drives me crazy.

I mean, if you go to New York, it drives me crazy. Nashville drives me crazy. Memphis drives me crazy. The District of Columbia drives me crazy.

And I often think that it's impossible to see what we need to see without taking that multi decade lens.

In Boston, when we were at the conference this year, I wrote this really long piece about Brown versus Board of Education, Milliken versus Bradley, which came along, you know, 20 years later and basically dismantled a lot of. Of the Brown versus Board of Education.

You know, just story of integration And I just feel like our world doesn't know it and our world doesn't realize that we are, in fact, the continuation of the Brown story with. With legitimate reasons for hope. So if we look at St.

Louis before we get to the charter school stuff that's happening there, that's really encouraging. I just think we have to talk more about the Delmar Divide.

And, you know, the Delmar Divide is so famous that the BBC in another continent, they do an entire documentary about the Delmar Divide. And you know, what it's meant for St. Louis.

But also, hey, people outside the United States should understand the United States has Delmar divides going through virtually every city in the country. Can you just tell a little bit about what the Delmar Divide is and. And how it might have affected your growing up?

Yep. Delmar Divide. There's a Street in St. Louis. It runs across the entire city. I think it gets into the county a little bit.

And actually, actually, before I get there, St. Louis, interesting spot. There's St. Louis, the city which has actually been hemorrhaging population for 30, 40 years. Then there's St.

Louis county, which is right next to it, which is technically made up of 90 different municipalities. There's a county government, but in each of those municipalities, some have their own mayors. Not all of them.

Some, a lot of them joined together to form school for different school districts, etc. But I say all that because a lot of population actually moved from the city. They didn't like, necessarily leave Missouri.

A lot of folks just moved to the county. And so the whole area is 1, 1.5 million people, I think, given, give or take, a few years ago.

But I just think that's important context to know kind of how the city. But when you. Most people say St. Louis, you actually, a lot of people are talking about all of it.

They're not just talking about the small part of the city. You're talking about all of it. If you grew up there, you're talking about all of it. I don't say I'm from rich in Heights, Missouri. I say I'm from St.

Louis, Missouri. So Delmar is a street that kind of cuts through the entire city. And I think it even gets into the county a little bit.

And, you know, you grew up, you know, north of Delmar was a, you know, as folks would say back then, just not great area, poor, not developed, underdeveloped, et cetera, et cetera. All the things that, you know, you come to see in many urban communities across the country.

In certain parts of those communities, which is really, you know, saddens. Like, how can we as a society not figure out how to support areas and build and grow and flourish?

And it sounds Delmar is like a complete difference, right? It's where people do economic development and more flourishing. I won't say it's flourished, but more flourishing. Things of that nature.

My son's school is for sure. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, one of the. I didn't realize this living in St. Louis.

It wasn't until I actually got to University of Kansas, where I kind of realized some of these pieces kind of clicked for me. One of the common questions you ask people and I still do, you know, to this day, when you meet somebody from St.

Louis is, where'd you go to high school? And that question is. It's kind of interesting. Like, you think it's kind of funny. It's like, oh, you went to this high school with it.

Like, there's some, like, you know, alumni catch up part of it. But it's also just a.

It's a question about class and segregation in the city, because different high school, like, based on sales, it is a very segregated area when you take the totality of it. And based on the high school kind of tells you where you live. You know, if there's. If you were growing up with resources.

I tell people all the time, Ledoux, again, was a wealthier suburb in St. Louis. Like, I got to go there because, again, my dad, who was custodian, worked in that district. I told you, I went to Ladue.

And they're like, oh, right.

I'm like, did you have no idea about my background, my upbringing, and how blessed I am to be here and how much my parents gave for me to be in this spot right now? Right. And then to your point, you just see that in many cities across the country, Right? And, you know, I've seen St. Louis ebb. I've seen it flow.

I was back in St.

You see that in many cities across America, there's some Delmar. It may not be as stark, but there's some Delmar. And it just tells you. To me, it goes back to your point about learning your history.

If you think about the public school system, you know, it is built on many neighborhoods. A lot of many neighborhoods were built on redlining. Right.

And so it investments and resources were all done in a very purposeful way and continues to sustain itself. So, again, I'll stop there. I think I have a lot of hope for my hometown. I have a lot of hope from indices across this country.

And I think the work that we're doing, the work many folks who are listening to us are doing, gives me that hope. But it does require folks to have access to great schools, no matter where you live. And I'm very pro as an individual.

I'm very pro neighborhood schools.

I'm also very pro if that neighbor school doesn't work for you, that you should have an option that does that is not requiring you to figure out how to negotiate the system like my mom did.

Yeah. I'm thinking about Coates famous article, the Case for Reparations.

And the thing is so compelling about that piece is just its specificity and going in and looking at the specific lending practices, looking at exactly the contracts that African American lenders were forced to accept that were different than white lenders. If you get into the specifics of education policy and where exactly people can go, it just becomes inarguable, the creation of all of those.

Those small municipalities around St. Louis. So much of this was a function of wanting to have separate schools and, yes, redlining, those kinds of things. What's interesting about.

About St. Louis, I'd love to hear you talk a little bit more about. I talk about this. This case, Milliken versus Bradley.

Milliken versus Bradley came out of Detroit, and it was decided in 74. And basically the court had decided, yes, absolutely. Inarguably, there has been segregation in education happening in Detroit.

But the case after Nixon had appointed, I think, three new justices. So we had different justices in the early 70s than we did in the early 50s.

Basically said, you can make an integration program, but you can't compel the surrounding school districts to be a part of that.

Yep.

And you know, that is exactly all of the busing controversy in Boston. It was happening at the exact same time. And Boston was just about ready to include, you know, surrounding school districts in their d.

SEG stuff in Boston. But then this case comes out of Washington, and it just shut it all down.

You're either gonna participate voluntarily, or I'm gonna find a way to wipe out these lines altogether, and you're gonna be in one big education, you know, system. And once he had basically said that edict, okay, okay, okay, we'll make this voluntary program. So can you just cast.

I don't know if you saw this in my post this week. I just highlighted a new study coming out of Brown Annenberg which shows that you force white people into desegregation in the current context.

What do they do more? They're voting participation rates go up significantly. Right. You know, so there's all sorts of ways that we find a way to.

To get back to a system that unfairly allocates educational opportunity. But St. Louis is unique here, and your experience kind of dovetails with it. You had a lot of kids that were coming from St.

Louis to your district via different mechanism, but you saw the experience of those kids.

And I remember being in college and hearing about it, and then, you know, a few years later visiting my high school, I just remember it looking different. Right. Like, I went back a couple times to, like, guest speak in my high school when I was, you know, found myself in the Obama administration.

I was like, whoa, that's very different. Right. And again, I think as a kid, you don't. You're not necessarily. I'll say, I'll speak for myself.

I wasn't necessarily connecting all these dots, right. Like, I got there in seventh grade. I remember it was like, culturally challenging at first, again, given my. My own upbringing.

But I would say maybe, like, by the time I'm in high school and by the time, particularly by the time I'm a junior senior, like, I was it maybe just a stronger person, stronger being stronger leader to have, you know, connected with kids who didn't look like me. You know, white Jewish kids, people from. There's a big Catholic community.

There was, you know, again, African American kids come from the city who had all just kind of like, figured out how to grow up together. Right. And so it was very, very powerful. My mom really a story that ties all these two pieces together. My mom taught this again.

She was a teacher in the city in elementary school. I pretty. Almost guarantee, like, almost every kid there throughout her whole 34 years, 35 years was African American.

And one of her favorite stories is this kid named Christina just had so much promise. Right. And my mom really wanted her to be able to go to other school that can get education because she.

She didn't necessarily think that was going to be her neighborhood system. I'll show you the power of the teacher that my mom saw this in that kid.

Yeah.

First, second grade, and was like, how do I. How do I help you navigate this? Anyway, Christina ended up coming to Ladue and she was graduating my same class.

And so I knew all about her from my mom talking about her when I'm this kid. And then all of a sudden I'm in seventh grade, I'm like, oh, hello. Like, I've heard about you for, you know, multiple years. And she went on, I can't.

She went to college somewhere great. College, successful has gone. I think she's in Chicago now, et cetera.

My mom is, you know, my mom's a big Facebooker, so she follows her career and all the other stuff.

That's great.

But I think that's just emblematic of the story of, like, that ability for students whose schools were under resourced or, you know, didn't necessarily continue to move up to meet different bars. I did not. Like, you know, they had to get on the bus and then drive 45 minutes.

Yeah.

But that 45 minutes was to them to have an opportunity not only from a. Obviously to get a great education, but again, I just want to keep emphasizing the cultural mix of folks made all of us better. It really did. Right.

On schools and, you know, I think. I think it's Louisville, there was a big study on just integration and how that the outcomes for all kids went up. Right.

So I do think that cultural piece was really, really is really, really important. And busing provided that in St. Louis. And like, you can make argument that's the best way or that or however else we're doing it.

And I think that can get into some of the work you talk about in St. Louis now. But I will say I thought I Saw firsthand the opportunity gave many kids.

Again, it wasn't busing for me, but I was still driving 20 minutes to get to that school with my dad every morning, who was working there. And that was opportunity for me. Right. So that was again our own way to exercise choice. And yeah, you just gotta have.

I live in Denver now and one of the things I love about the system in Denver is just to compare it. You're guaranteed by your neighborhood school. I think that's great.

Yeah.

And if that doesn't work for you, you can opt out and choose, pick up to 13 schools in the lottery and get assigned somewhere else. And so I can walk to school for worse. And if that doesn't work for me, I can go somewhere else. And you know, you gotta figure out how to get there.

But anyway, to your point, it's like, how do we have this mix that both helps you help schools get better, but also helps kids be with kids who may not look like them, may not grew up like them, all those different experiences.

So then when you go to post secondary or whether it be college or career or whatever, you have engaged with many more people in the world that will prepare you for the next phase of your life.

That's great. I could stay focused on this for a long time and whatever people want to hear from you on a wide range of other other topics.

But I just, I think that my experience with charterfolk across the country is the depth of knowledge in our world is higher than it is in the general population. It's higher than it is, I would say, even in the general education provider population. But it's not enough. It's not enough.

And when our world knows the details a little bit more about how much unfairness is actually cooked into our system of public education, they get additional Ghanas to go after it more. Oh, I know now why we exist. I know now why we've gotta keep growing.

I know now why we gotta build our, our advocacy chops to be able to push the entire system to, to purge itself of some of these inequities that are still there.

So I may be reading it differently than you, but my sense is, man, we can tell a great story in Atlanta, man, we can tell a great story in Newark, every single one of these cities. But let's, let's go to some other things here or let's just start to go some concentric circles related to this.

ProPublica is one of the places that I read often when it comes to telling this history accurately. ProPublica wrote a great piece in St. Louis.

I was just reading it again last night at Post Ferguson and to like, look at the experience of Michael Brown in education and all of this. And I just thought it was stunningly great.

It was co written by the New York Times, but ProPublica clearly took great pride over having authored this thing. I read ProPublica in those contexts and I think they're a great asset. They should be a great ally.

And then I turn around the next day and I see ProPublica writing the most unfair garbage about charter schools that I just can't understand the disconnect.

And so with your political background, you know, now having played such a key role among some of the most prominent Democrats in the country, deep relationships with many in the progressive wing of it that probably find ProPublica a source of trusted information, what is it that we need to do to get to the point where ProPublica's, you know, interpretation of history and its ideas for the future come together in some kind of unity that more directly aligns with what we're trying to do here?

Yeah, it's a great question. Well, one, and I think we do some of this and so I think some of it we just need to do stronger and better and all those good things.

But first of all, you kind of use a word that I want to just highlight, which is as relationships. And you know, having spent two decades doing political work, you know, nothing gets done without relationships. Right.

Nothing is done without the ability to have conversations. Right.

I think early on in the charter space, and I will say this from like, you know, I've always been, I would say me, I don't want to say outside observer, but when I'm working in bomb administration, I do a lot about what was happening with charters. I was working a lot with the Department of Education when I was working in the White House.

And so I kind of saw the like strategy and I kind of appreciate the strategy of like, how do you get in the system to change it from the inside out. Right. And I think that's a smart strategy.

And there were some talking points that I think stuck for people on, on in the progressive space that I think are just not true. Right. So anti yin. I don't think charters are anti yin. I think charters are pro autonomy.

And how do you have the space you need to be able to teach kids and do what's best for your school? Right. That doesn't mean you're anti union, but I think that is, that has stuck with some folks. Right. Let's See, there was another one.

I was gonna say anti traditional public school. I don't think charters are anti traditional public school. I don't think people in this movement are traditional public school.

I think they're like, there could be multiple ways to educate kids. And how do we figure out the best mix in a community that works for that community that breaks down the barriers that you spoke about. Right.

You see, D.C. is a good example. About half the kids are in charter schools. Half the kids are traditional public schools. We've seen D.C. outcomes rise.

There's more work to do in D.C. but D.C. also, on the last NAEP scores actually kind of stood out and did okay. Right.

So it doesn't mean that there's not room to grow and room to grow, but it means, like, some people, those talking points are kind of getting to people's heads on the left, and they've been reinforced and reinforced and reinforced. And I think the first step to break through some of those things is just to build relationships.

One of the things I'm trying to do in this seat is do more with the media. Not necessarily.

You're not going to see me quoted in a bunch of New York Times articles, but I do have a lot of relationships with folks from my previous career path. How do I do that? So we can have a conversation. Right. And I would also say, how do we speak?

How do we engage in, like, you know, regular language, Like a language that we are, common language that we can all do. Right. I found many times working in the political space, you know, we were quick to say, like, look at these facts and look at this and look at that.

That's great. People connect at a value space level. Right. That's where it's got to start off.

And then from after there, you can introduce facts and data, etc, but if you haven't connected, you haven't even started at the value space place. The facts today, they're not going to mean anything to anybody. Yeah.

So what I appreciate about what you said is like, let's can we connect on, like, we're all trying to get better options for kids and break down barriers that exist in the public school system since it's, you know, since it started here in America and we have to start at that starting point. How do we have those kind of conversations?

Lastly, I would say I think sometimes too, is like, when those stories are good or when you see this, when you see that our instinct is to retreat, it's like, oh, okay, we're not going to talk to them. Like, okay, we're going to, we're going to go do our own thing, right? And we should.

What I love about what you have is, like, you have something that is. We can speak to members who are doing the work and again, have opportunity to do it. That is all that we should do. Both hands.

It doesn't mean we should like now not talk to pro publica. Right? So when we see a story that we don't like, let's go engage and say, like, why did you write that? How did they get there? Et cetera.

So I just believe in the power. Building relationships, that takes capacity. I think we've grown a lot of capacity over the last few years in our space.

And I think we've seen more folks who also just have advocacy and political background, like myself, who see how I can use that to get better educational options. So I think, I think there's a lot we can do.

I think we also have a moment in time where education, it is a, you know, just to put political terms to it, it's moderate right now. And so there's one choice, simple as that, right? They want choice.

You see some states going all out to say, here's your ESA or here's whatever, go pick what's best for you. You see some states saying, great private school systems, this public school system, that at the end of the day, parents want choice.

And I think there's a huge opportunity to engage in that conversation. We are, and I think others are on, what does that mean? Community by community, me for that community for that state, and how do you execute that?

But what folks know, and I think everybody, folks you know, who are on the left know as well too, is the status quo is not acceptable. And I will, I will stay in this role and I will be doing this work. Like if you were defending Jessica status quo, that's a losing argument.

And I think we all, I say that because we need to stop being defensive and we need to start being on offense and create the relationship necessary to say there are multiple ways to reach the children that we want to reach, which are all kids, and give them access to high quality education. If everybody tells you there's just one way, you know, that's the status quo.

So I, I say amen 100 times.

This coming back to the relationships piece and what ultimately tips us into having the level of support we want to have, a couple of experiences that I would just throw in because in California, for sure, we did a lot of work to build relationships with others that we had previously been weak with the Black Caucus we were great with Margaret for Fortune helped us a great deal, many others.

But what we tended to do was build the relationships, go to all their events and yes, sponsor their stuff and, and yes, in some cases endorse candidates and all that stuff. It was, it was way relationships really came together.

But on policy ideas we usually didn't end up really ally allies on much, sometimes in issues outside of education. And my sense is that when we put together a policy agenda like you're saying on offense, that shows indisputably ProPublica. Who are you kidding?

The charter school world is coming forward with proposals to erase educational red lines. This is what we're doing right now and we're trying to propose it in a responsible way.

It's not we're anti traditional public schools, but we don't think that there should be lines that are drawn that, that unfairly allocate educational opportunity in our, in our country.

And when we take some of those stance, and yes, they're going to be controversial in some situations, we're going to prove ourselves ready to such that what's ProPublica going to do then? Or what are some of the other progressives going to do then? Let us go out on these issues of fundamental fairness and dangle in the wind.

I don't think that's going to happen, but I think we have to have the courage. I really feel like that's what the fourth decade of the charter school movement is all about.

To be able to articulate more crisply now what that North Star is that we're working in, working toward. And I feel like city based settings are the best places for us to say, hey, what do we want St. Louis to evolve into?

Where do we want kids to be able to go if they so choose? What are the things that are fundamentally preventing them from getting there? How do we erase them? Don't meat axe them overnight.

Of course it would be terrible. But can't we just slowly, slowly erase them responsibly over time?

It just seems like Citi Fund is perfectly positioned here, you know, and you guys have the incredible moral authority of this new PPI study that came out saying that in all tables in cities where we have large concentrations of charter school students in urban settings, we're seeing all boats rise and we're seeing gaps close. So what do you see is our opportunity and what is Citi Funds unique entry point to being able to make a contribution in this area?

I appreciate that question and I'm going to touch on one thing you said on the advocacy side and come back to the Citifund question. But the other thing I think we should be doing, Jed, is there are. I actually think there's more we agree on with folks in education and disagree.

Right. Like, and the disagreements may be very strong, so I won't say it's not. But like do we all want better pay for teachers? Yeah. Right, right.

Do we, do we all want really good buildings? Like there's. I say that because sometimes I think we get narrow focused on just our one piece.

And like again using Denver as an example, there was a bond last year that passed in Denver. Right. Union supported it. The local advocacy group, Denver Famous for Public Schools charter advocacy group, they supported it.

So how do we also some of the things that we know are just such a bread and butter issues in education, we should also be advocating and taking lead on those things and not just being like, okay, they got that but we're gonna do this. But it's like now let's. To build up the, the relationships and the capital to go have some of the other. When we have the sticky issues.

We, we've, we've, we've shown also, like yes. And like. So anyway, I just wanted to like say that.

Yeah, yeah, no, I like that. I like that a lot.

Let's be on, let's be on offense on the things we carry. And it's more, more than just, you know, the charter itself that we, we. It is it.

There's more to run to school that is a center point to be able to make the schools that we work with work. But there's so much more human capital, et cetera. So I just want to say that I'm excited about what's going on. City fund.

Look, I think one of the things you saw back in the Obama administration, I think you're seeing this now is place based work. And I say that because there's a whole conversation on what's happening at the federal government level.

I think one of the things that it means though is what does that mean for states and local. Right. And I will say, you know we talked a lot about St. Louis. Right. That's a, that's a.

Eric Straga's there is doing amazing work and it's also very different. Like what he's doing there's is strategically related, but it's very different than like to work in Atlanta or to work in D.C.

and so there's a one size fits all approach. And that's why I love about our work because we're like, let's go find really great leaders who know these communities, who know the history.

I love the point that you've been bringing up the through line throughout this whole conversation is the history. There's the United States history, but there's a St. Louis history, there's a D.C. history, there's an Atlanta history, there's a national history.

So who knows those histories? How do we bring it all together to come up with a system that could work for those communities? Right.

And so we're currently in 19 cities across the country seeing remarkable work.

You mentioned the PPI study and that's, you know, we're proud to support the advocates and organizations on the grounds who were growing great schools, doing great advocacy. And you know, my goal over the next few years is like, can we take that to more places? Right. And so decided to kind of figure out what that means.

And you know, if we can do that, I know we can. Because I see the reason I feel good about that is the leaders on the ground.

And since I've been in this seat, since I've been at City Fund, but since, since I've been in the seat, I always hear, you know, town's a challenge, talent could be a challenge, et cetera in the education space. And I don't disagree. There's more we gotta do, obviously to protect teachers.

There's more we gotta do to make sure they're not doing eight jobs at once and can really focus on teaching. So I agree with that. But I also see, you know, people moving back to the communities are from the start of school.

I also see people saying like, hey, I really want to go run this, I want to go run an ed champion, which is a non profits, we support other ones helping the growth of charter schools in that community. I really want to go back to my local community and do this. I did this for a long time over here and now I'm ready to come home. Right?

And so I've seen that more than ever in the last two or three years. And I think you're gonna see people keep wanting to do that because you could like your connection to home, your connection to the movie movement.

And so while, you know, despite some of the challenges out there, I also see a lot of energy and opportunity. And I think it's all going to be locality by locality.

And I think that's, that's what's exciting our work and being able to partner with other great organizations who are interested in growing great schools. But ultimately I just think if this work is is leader focused.

And when you have a great leader running a local nonprofit, they are going to be able to recruit great people who want to start schools. And everything kind of flows from there. And then I have been just to your larger point about what you did when you were at.

You were back in California. As I start to visit many of our cities and see the work that they're putting forward.

Like I was at a dinner A year ago, 600 people in the room and all from all across the community. And. And that took a long. It takes time to build that. Yeah, we have to be intentional. We have to be smart. And we can't. We have to.

We can't be siloed where we're just like, okay, we're just going to do our little piece over here.

No, we're trying to build a movement to change the way people not only view the public education system, but experience the public education system in this country.

So I really want to get to a few questions about all of the craziness coming out of D.C. i think you have a very unique perspective here and can probably help us. But before we get there, just one last question here.

You know, I obsess on advocacy structure.

You know, I don't know how often I write at charterfolk, hey, charter school people gotta put $25 per kid into their membership organization so they have the advocacy, hey, we gotta build C3, C4 stuff. I talked about Starlee doing so well in Texas. Now she's bringing all that to the national organization.

It seems to me as though cities are a particularly attractive opportunity for us. I mean, look, we need a national organization that's sustainable and it's hard financially to make that work in states where we have small sectors.

Oh my gosh, if we could just get a state, state association that was financially viable, that would be great.

But now, you know, we have cities where concentrations of schools are starting to come together large enough to perhaps support city based advocacy organizations, membership organizations. It's that membership status, in my opinion, that confers greater legitimacy on what we're doing.

And my sense is that, you know, teacher unions that drive us all crazy, you know, they're not driving their narrative out of national organizations. They're driving it out of their city based organizations.

And my sense is that when we finally get some of these membership organizations in city based settings coming forward with proactive agendas, we're going to drive narrative like our movement never has before. Test my assumptions here, but you know, press me on this. Does that analysis fit or where are the gaps?

I think it fits with some tweaks.

I think again, I use Denver as an example and it's, you know, there's many cities that we support doing that and it's, it's, but it's, you know, the one I live in, the one I see a little bit more up close. But great organization here, Denver Family for Public School. Great leader Clarence Burden.

You know, Clarence ran great folks, helped support great folks who were running for the school board two years ago, almost two years ago, a year and a half ago. They have another school board election this fall. Excuse me, Those folks ran on school safety.

That was a big issue in Denver at the time, still is, but that was a big issue at the time and they were successful. And I say that because they, they had that and they're doing work on safety.

So if you were just running to say charter this charter, that that's not connecting with community. Right. You know how many times you've talked to community members whose kids may go to a charter school and they have no idea.

Yeah. Yep.

And we talk about this often. Do they need to know? And I'm not saying like that from a transparency. Of course, like transparency would be like, you know, this is a charter school.

But my point is their kids in the great school. And so that's what the parent cares about. Right.

And I say that because we also have to speak to issues that the parents and community care about in order to be able to continue to grow and remove the lines that you mentioned. And there's a direct connection to those pieces. So that's piece number one.

Piece number two is at the same time the network of charter schools we have in the community. We need to organize. We need to. And you can debate if that's like membership or not. I know your feelings on that, Jim.

But regardless of what it is, we have to get folks together. We have to organize school leaders, we have to organize parents at schools. We need to. And then both understand what it is they care about.

So you can understand that it's safety so that the candidates, where folks are running candidates are understanding the needs of the community, but then also get them to show up, not just to vote. And here this is a Very important point. Too often it's like, okay, the campaign's here, the election's here.

We need to where we win is the in between. It is after the election, did we, are we going to go do what we said we're going to do? Are we going to support it?

Are we now getting the same folks involved at a local level on the issue campaigns they need? Are we getting them involved in that bond because the bond will give them access to their school, becoming a better facility?

Are we getting them involved in the safety plan that the school board is going to vote on Three months. Right. That is the like, too often, this is not just education. I see this in every, in a lot of movements where it's like, we got the people in.

Now we're going to go over here and do our work and then we're going to come back a couple years later and talk about the election.

The connection is when you get the, the movement that you need to build is when you get the parents, school leaders, et cetera, engaged in the issue campaign that is necessary for us to break down those lines that you've been referencing throughout the whole conversation.

And so I'm, what I'm excited about is I'm starting to see that in a lot of cities across this country, I still think we have work to do and a lot of refinement and a lot of, you know, ways to continue to both build that capacity, but also point that capacity in the places where it's needed most. Right. So there's still work to do there. Yeah, but it is, but it's something I'm starting to see a lot better.

And it's an important thing for me sitting in this seat is to continue to push that point home at a city by city level. Right.

To your point about the city piece and the bond in Denver or the safety issue campaign in Denver is very different than what may be happening in San Antonio now, another one of our cities. And that's why you have to do it at a local level.

And I think where we come in is we can provide not just resources, but strategic support on how do you build that ongoing systematic campaign that is not just about winning that election, but it's about actually winning at a policy level, which is ultimately what we have to do to be successful.

Yeah, love that. I totally, totally agree. And this North Star that we're working on in between elections, super, super important part of it is red lines.

I think there are other things that we could be talking about as well. I think the financial practices of our school districts.

They move money from some communities to other communities, and there are historical patterns that are there. And to just be an advocate for the funds should get to the kids for whom they are intended. And charter schools are already set up this way.

We're not moving money from Georgetown, you know, from. From Southeast in D.C. to subsidize schools in Georgetown, but the district still is. And I think there is a healthy place for us to be there.

Yes, it will be a little bit controversial, but it will be the kind of connective tissue in between elections that will be terrific for us. But like I say, everything we've been talking about, I can go into it for. And I know there are a couple.

We only had like another 10 minutes left here or so, and we haven't even talked about elephants in the room. Part of that's intentional because, my gosh, every conversation, it seems like we start with the craziness in Washington and all of that.

But I don't want to, like, have the entire conversation go by without being able to hear your thoughts about this again.

I think your participation in presidential politics, just the chops that you bring to this, and my experience with advocates, I've never seen something like this. Just the. The sheer exhaustion, the volume of stuff that's coming at the advocates, but then the school leaders, too.

I'm visiting the charter school organizations and the uncertainty they're all dealing with. And I'm sure you've got uncertainty within your staff and all the orbit of Citi funds.

So as it relates to all the changes that are coming out of Washington right now, do you have any starting point suggestions for how we best navigate all this?

Yeah, I think, you know, something that is. I've been trying to my own ethos the last couple years is to realize people aren't monoliths.

And I say that because I've talked to a lot of people who are like, what is going on? How does.

I can't do this, you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and others who are like, you know, we'll see what happens, and could this be a good thing? Etc.

And so I say that because, you know, I am not trying to make assumptions in terms of where everybody's head's at, because I think people experience, you know, people's realities are their realities, and they're experiencing it in whatever way. They're experiencing it based on their own lived experience. And I.

I just think that's important for all of us to remember, you know, as we, as we Move forward. Having said that, what I can say is I think most people I've talked to are experiencing this as disruption. Right. You can say that.

So I'm gonna get some people. Most people are like, ah, disruption that I don't know how to. Some people are like, it's disruption that is needed.

Pretty common denominator that is disruption. Right. I'm a, I'm a. And, and again, I don't. I. How. How you as a person experience that, you know is. Is how you experience that.

I tell my team all the time, is there something you need to help as we are going through this period of disruption, if we can be supportive to let me know and, and the work must continue. Right. It's like, how do we. We can't. We can't. Now more than ever, we actually have to figure out how.

How we operating in a way that's going to continue education, provide access to education for kids in the communities that we serve. I'm also a believer, and maybe I'm a believer that with disruption provides opportunities.

Yeah.

And so going back to my point also about. And I know, you know, every few days, if not every day, there's just new things that we're hearing about, it's like, how do I interpret this?

How do I interpret that? What does this mean? This is me. Federal courts are like, stop this. Some federal courts are like, keep going, like everything. Right.

And so how do we all kind of step back and say, I don't think we're any of us are going to know definitive answers on everything for weeks, if not months, if not longer.

Right.

Some of this will be battled out in courts. Some of this, you know, you'll have an executive order sign, somebody will challenge it or go to court. Does that matter?

Like, there's all that kind of murkiness that none of us are gonna know. And at the same time, how do we step back and say, okay, knowing there's this general disruption, what does that mean for what I can do locally?

And frankly wasn't any. For I could do it myself. State model, Right.

Yep.

And again, being all. And this is. I'm not saying this is an easy thing to do when there's like a lot flying.

But you know, one of the things we are doing with our many of our grantees is like, what does this mean for you? And what does it mean? Like, what offense can we just do a missing disruption because again, it provides an opportunity for change.

And what role can we play in the. In the way that change goes versus waiting for change to happen to us.

I'm just a big believer, like, let's not wait for things to happen, let's make them happen.

Yeah, I like that.

And so, and again, I'm not saying that's easy. So I don't want to be like, oh, okay, all this is going on and then we can just go do this.

Like, that's not my, my message, but my message is, to your point, let's. What's the North Star? There's an overarching North Star of like access across the country for kids. What does that North Star mean in that state?

What does that North Star mean? That city? And amidst the disruption, how can I get what changes? Like, can I be proactive about to get there? Right.

And so that's, that's how I'm trying to navigate right now. That's how we're trying to support, you know, it is. I'm not saying that's an easy thing. We have grantees who lost federal government grants.

Yeah.

You know, we have, you know, folks who are, We've had a lot.

Right.

It's a lot. So what I hope to be and what I want my, my team to be is one, empathy. Yeah. Because again, everybody is experiencing this in different ways. Ways.

And so how do we just be empathetic? Support for folks. And then two, what does this mean at a local level and the state level for opportunities?

And then three, be willing to adjust as needed because what may be an opportunity today, again, all of a sudden, as all this kind of happens and goes through court and whatnot, may be tweaked in a couple months. And so we need to be a little bit nimble as well too. It doesn't change my passion for the work.

Yeah.

And I hope it doesn't change other folks passion for the work also.

And I hope if we're able to just think about like, okay, how do I use this moment as an opportunity, you know, long term that we're able to figure out how to, how to. And again, the undercurrent of all of this, I believe on the education side is choice. And that is, that's something that we care about.

And so what does that mean again for us? And what do we, what can we do there? So that's just how I'm navigating it. And again, it's not easy and we're tracking everything.

And I think the biggest thing we're trying to do from our end is just support our grantees on how to navigate it within their communities and connect the Folks that they meet and also have them talk amongst each other to compare notes and figure out how to best navigate everything as we move forward.

That's great. Let me pressure test one concept, and then we'll just wrap up with a couple, you know, just parting thoughts from you.

I wonder whether you think this is valid or not. I know that I have no survey data. I have nothing. This is just kind of hunch, just kind of general feeling.

I was in the seat at CCSA when Trump won happened. I know what those early months were like afterwards. I know the kinds of conversations that we were having then.

There were a lot of conversations about our votes, values, and there was a sense of almost ambiguity about whether or not we were on the right side of history and we needed to be, you know, reminding ourselves or what, projecting various things. And some of those things. I think, actually, Marlon, most of those decisions I would still live with. There's several, though.

I don't know if I would do it the same way.

And it was born of the fact that charter folk just hadn't been having as many conversations about values and what we're really trying to do and some of these historical issues right now. Marlon, I don't sense any of that. I just came back from a conference in Colorado, your. Your neck of the woods. I mean, this.

There was so much optimism and, you know, sense of quiet confidence. Hey, it's hard. It's crazy. Right now, we're going on. I was in D.C. saw several charter schools, school visits. Never came up.

Hey, it's hard, but, like, hey, we're. We're inarguably offering something of value. Just got back from this California conference where I would say the same thing. Do you sense that we're.

We could still get more leaders of color to have more legitimacy, you know, in all sorts of things that we're doing. But this worry that maybe we're a part of some plot, that maybe we're, like, not a constructive force after all. I don't hear any of that. Any.

Any reaction to that.

It surprised a lot of people. And I think there was a couple years where people was like, what do I. What do I do? I don't like, you know, like, you know, it was interesting. Jazz.

I've been like.

I remember reading history, you know, in high school and junior high etc, and looking back at moments and frankly, talking to my parents now who are still alive. My dad is 90, and my mom is turning 80 soon. And, you know, I hear stories from them about growing up. They're very different than how I grew up. Right.

To. To African Americans. You know, my dad was born in the 30s. Like, so it's just very different. Right?

Yeah.

I remember, like, reading that and being just like, you know, you're reading it and you hear about it from your. Your family, and just being like, wow. And it feels so long ago, et cetera.

And I just recently realized, like, we were just living in a very historical moment and that. That when my kids get to high school, they're gonna be reading about.

Yeah.

And I. And I say that in a way of, like, I think in 16, 17, 18, you're like. I'm like. I'm like, what's happening? This. Yeah. I don't know. Whatever.

And I think now people are like, again, whether you agree with things going on or you disagree with things going on, there's just a little bit, like, more. Okay. Like, certain things are in my control. Certain things are not. This is how I'm gonna move forward. How do I. Again, how do I.

If I have opportunities, how do I move them forward? And so I just think it's.

I mean, I think it's different, generally speaking, in the world, but I think particularly in our work, yeah, it's like, going. I mean, look tired and burnout is real, regardless of anything, right. For folks.

And so we need to make sure that we're always just taking care of our people. School. But, you know, even from over, you know, from Trump's first election to Biden to now, there's been some great schools out there.

I think people see, they're like, I can still do this.

Like, let's see.

I'm like.

And.

And their. Their moral integrity drives the day on why we're doing. On why we're doing this work. And so, anyway, I just agree with you. I think.

I wouldn't say, again, like, people are just like, okay. But I do think people are like, cool, okay, like, what is it again?

There's a personal feeling and what I need to do, and what does this mean for my school? What does this mean for our community? And then how do I move forward? And you see people leading, and I think that is, again, will allow us to.

To hopefully continue to make change with the opportunity presented with disruption.

Love it. All right, wrap us up with the 10 year view. Going forward, I push on charter schools. I think we need to be growing faster.

I just think that there are just too many families that still need something better. We've had our moments of difficulty. Zoom us out. I feel like we're going to get to 4 million kids here soon.

But I wish we had gotten to 4 million kids, you know, four years ago. I want us to get to 5 as fast as we can. But these numbers are arbitrary. These numbers are arbitrary.

They're just like indicators of like, what's going on. Generally take us out a decade now.

Yep. First of all, I believe systemic change happens both from the outside in, but also from the inside out.

And I say that because I think what I love about the concept of charter schools is it's, it is a different way of doing a public school system. And you still need advocacy on the outside that's continuing to push against the system to get better. Right.

It can't be just, we're gonna open a bunch of great schools. That's all. That's awesome.

But you also have to have the peace on the outside, always banning against, and that's how the system continually changes and reinforces itself. And so I see that getting better and I see that continuing to happen.

Look, I think in 10, 15 years, if we're successful where we are in many cities across the country, you have cities across the country that are just like seeing that, oh, there's a different way to do it. Let me just do it versus us having to go in and do it ourselves.

And you know, not ourselves, but we obviously work with local folks, but us not going to be like, hey, can we try here? You just see people like, I want to, like, this is a very different way of doing this. Right.

We've expanded the number of leaders who are going to start organizations and communities that meet are important to them and are helping again make the chase from the inside out and the outside in. So you see that grow.

And, and like you said, we have grown the number of folks in charter schools in a way that we know will help the entire public school system. So I think if we're, if we're over the next 10 to 15 years, I think all those things are possible.

The last thing is, as mentioned earlier on this call, I think both of us said this. We are.

We are in many states, and I think this could be something that just naturally happens, but in many states, we are moving towards choice, and how do we take advantage of those opportunities? So we're not over here while this other choice happens, but we are innovative.

We have figured out we are on the forefront of how AI should work in schools that allows teachers to teach but also get supported with all the things they also have to do. And what does that mean?

We have led the charge on what does post secondary mean in this new world and how do we connect the schools that we're working on that we are opening to connect to the next frontier? How are we leaders in that space now? Are we proactive in that space?

And if we can do that, the choice piece will build into that because parents will say, I want my kids to go to school there because that's the school of the future.

That's going to educate my kid for where the world is going, that requires us to lead and requires, again, take advantage of opportunities then to say, okay, let me see what the system is going to look like, and then whether we react to it, let's not react. Be proactive. And I think.

I think we have a huge opportunity, both based on who's leading on the ground, but also, frankly, you know, many of my folk, many of my partner organizations I get to work with. You got Shabbar Kip. I mean, I could go on and on. Like, I'm excited about the future because I think we're.

We're all starting to row in the same direction.

Well, folk really matter. And one of the things that I've enjoyed in my six years since I've left CCSA is I've had a chance to work in all sorts of places across the country.

And that's given you and me a chance to work together on several occasions. I've gotten to know you better and better, and I have a great sense of appreciation.

We have a very special folk who is leading one of our most special organizations. So. And. And I think a lot of people already know a lot of the unique gifts that you bring to the movement, but some don't know quite as much.

And so perhaps this recording can help even more charter folk understand the unique contributions that you're making. Marlon, so thank you for all you're doing.

Thank you for making time today and, you know, look forward to staying in contact and, you know, going to remember what you said there at the beginning, that this might be the first of many conversations. I'll be circling back.

I'm game. I'm always with my Jayhawk. And thank you, Jay, for having me. Yeah, one thing I didn't connect right.

Now is that, you know, you said you that that Georgetown Masters. I forgot that. And you know, I'm a Hoya, so I'm gonna go to work on you here. We're going to bring you to a Hoya basketball loyalty. I, I, I.

It won't be as strong as Kansas, but I, I'll go with Jordan. It won't be as strong as Kansas.

Thank you, Jeff, both for having me on, but also, again, just creating this space that we can all come on and talk and connect with each other. And I'll close how I finished. If you're listening to this, we couldn't do this work without you.

So just appreciate you and look forward to figuring out these opportunities together over the days and weeks and months ahead. So appreciate it.

Thank you so much, Marlon.

Okay, thanks, man.