Why Charter Schools Are Getting Their Swagger Back – CharterFolk Chat with Chris Barbic

Chris Barbic, welcome to CharterFolk Chat.

So great to have you here.

Thanks for being willing to do this.

Of course.

Thanks for having me.

And dude, congratulations man.

You know, Charter School Hall of Fame.

gotta say this is a choice.

That was, a very wise one, but, Can you just like, walk me through

like what were your reactions when, whomever it was that, that called you?

What, what were you thinking and, and what's it like to, you know,

those first, that first hour after you learned something like this?

It was awesome, Jed.

I mean, when you think about just all the great people that work in

our sector, I mean, you know, 'em, we grew up together with them.

You highlight a lot of them in CharterFolk.

it's just an awesome group of people.

So.

To get recognized for your work among such an incredible group.

man, I just couldn't be more grateful for it.

It was, it was a great feeling.

It was, I was surprised.

you know, the way, the way I found out about it was, Natalie

Natalie Kaharick who runs the Texas Public Charter School Association.

So she, reached out and said, Hey, we're gonna nominate you for this.

And I was kind of like, look, I haven't.

Been at YES Prep.

For like 15 years.

Why now?

And she's like, well, that's true, but you've been on our board for a long time.

You've, you know, done a bunch of good work.

through the association she mentioned my work in Tennessee with the,

with the Charter Association there.

And then City Fund, I mean, just through our work, we stay very

connected to the charter sector.

I get to meet, you know, tons of new leaders, try and drop

whatever knowledge I can.

So when she kinda like talked about the work outside of YES Prep.

Prep, It was less of a surprise, but, man, just incredibly grateful for it.

So give us the backstage pass.

Who called you?

You know, where were you?

I, found out from Andrea at the Alliance that they were doing it.

well, I knew I was getting nominated about two weeks before, but you know,

you never know accept nomination or not.

So, I guess that makes me a first ballot hall of famer, which

makes me, even more grateful.

so, Found out from Andrea about, you know, a few weeks before the conference

and I don't know, I don't know what you're like, I just, I didn't wanna

like, make a big deal out of it.

They, they said, Hey, don't share this with too many people.

'cause they didn't, they didn't want me to get out in front of the media.

So, I started letting some people at City Fund who I worked with know a

few days before because I knew they were gonna be at the conference.

So, the, you know, the thing that probably felt the best Jed, was when I would.

Just, you know, finally share it with some folks.

the number of people that, who I really respect who are just like,

man, that's super well deserved.

so again, coming from, coming from, just such awesome leaders, you know,

many of whom I've gotten to work with, it just felt really good.

It's, just, it's always great to be recognized for your work.

So I really was the highlight of the summer.

Well, I was work doing some work for the national, founders library,

charter school Founders library, which you're on the advisory board of.

And I basically did some research to look at how, who all has been appointed.

'cause we really don't have a, a great website.

We will soon.

We will soon celebrating everybody.

but it's, it's about 37, 38 people.

There've been a few institutions that have been chosen.

Mm-hmm.

but this is a very small group of people.

and so, you know, as you've, as you think about your own work.

How does being recognized in this way, has it affected at all what

you're thinking about in terms of what your impact has been, where

the biggest, difference was made?

or are you still just basically thinking about your work in, in the same way that

you were, say, three or four months ago?

I think it's a nice way of saying you're old.

but, no, I think, I think the conversation with Natalie, that

just really made me think about more than just, the work at Yes Prep,

which you know, was awesome and fun.

But, just the connection to the charter sector in a few different roles and

seats and even today, I guess just had me thinking a little bit more

broadly, but, I just feel lucky, man.

I've gotten to work with so many great people and on something that

I still care so much about.

I'm still learning a ton, so not many people at 55 get to say those things, so.

Just couldn't be more grateful.

So

I, do you think about your, your work in three big themes, three big chapters?

Is it, is it YES Prep.

Is it Tennessee ASD and is it City Fund or do you have different

ways that you would talk about?

No,

I think that's right.

I mean, you know, yes, prep is an operator as a founder, the role of

ASD was, we were really, if you boil it down, we were an authorizer.

We authorized a bunch of schools to do turnaround work.

Then now as a, you know, as a funder and a supporter through City Fund.

yeah, I think those are definitely the three big chapters in my career.

And, you know, are, I don't know if you're like, like me or not.

I don't, I do.

I have, whatever.

I have some, some chapters as well.

Perhaps not quite as distinct as your own, but there's something about those

seven years at Hooper Avenue mm-hmm.

In the classroom.

I it like if I have dreams at night, I don't dream about being an authorizer

at San Diego Unified School District.

I actually don't even dream that much about fi finishing buildings

or like, you know, opening up a graduate school at High Tech High.

There are some advocacy fights in the legislature.

They do wake me up still, but really, what's like most deeply

seeped into my pores probably are those experiences in the classroom.

And it just makes me wonder.

Is it the same for you?

Is there something about YES Prep.

That re is on an even deeper register than perhaps some of this other work?

No doubt, man.

I mean, I think it gets back to the origin story.

I mean, I started Yes, prep as a frustrated teacher.

I taught sixth grade and elementary school that finished in sixth grade.

So I, you know, was doing Teach From America in Houston and

because, it was an elementary school with a lot of the kids that.

Left to go to the middle school.

Who had younger brothers and sisters at, at the school?

I was still teaching.

I would see my kids come back, you know, pick up their younger brother and sister.

they'd swing by the classroom and, It was just like one horror story after another

about how lousy the middle school was.

And so being able to, pivot from that experience really, you know,

create the school of my dreams, and then bring along former students,

educators from around the city, great educators from around the city.

I mean, that was like magical, you know?

So yeah, those early years, definitely.

stand out and I mean, it was probably like this for you.

We worked so hard.

I mean, we were going to school from seven 30 to five Saturday, three times a month.

and when you're working and we were all young and about the same age, like

it was your colleagues, these were your friends outside of work, I mean.

When you're working with people that intensely, you just develop

a different kind of bond, I think.

man, so I just, yeah.

I look back on those years with, nothing but love and fond memories.

I.

I was gonna do this in a different order, but you, you've kind of gone in

this direction anyway, so let me just go into this, how hard you worked,

and how hard everybody was working.

and I mean, that, that is a hallmark.

People will talk about Chris Barbic, just the hours at the ASD as well

and the grueling, grueling political challenges at the ASD as well.

I just, how have you?

Sustain this work over that period of time.

I mean, how, how do you, are you smarter now about how hard you can

push yourself and how hard you can't?

anything you,

well, I mean, I had a, I had a heart attack when I was doing that and I was

44, so, probably not a poster child for someone that should be given advice on

this topic, but, well, maybe exactly.

Maybe what you learned it through that experience is, you know, well, exactly.

We wanna hear.

I think that, I mean, I'm definitely taking better care of myself.

The work I'm doing now is not, I mean, it's, it's, I work hard and everybody

on our team at City Fund works hard.

It's, but it's different kind of work.

you know, I'll never forget when, when I started working in the,

in the funding space, the first person I called was Don Shelby.

Yeah.

And because, you know, Don had been.

Aspire and, you know, was at gates.

And, I was like, Don, you know, drop some knowledge on me, like,

how should I be thinking about this?

And he had this great line where he is like, you know, when you're

working in schools, whether it's as a principal or as a, you know,

a leader of a charter network.

You're the director, he's like, in this role, you're more the executive producer.

You're, you're trying to find the good directors and you're pouring

into them, which is still important work, but different kind of work.

And that analogy's always stuck with me.

I mean, of course Don, you know, said something really

wise I still think about today.

but you know, it's different kind of work.

and I think, you know what's, even though I had some health challenges,

what, What was really important kind of getting through the work and still, you

know, why I'm so excited to still be in it is you gotta have a sense of humor.

I just think like, and you gotta surround yourself with people who do too.

So, you know, one of the things we talk a lot about at the ASD was

we can take the work seriously.

We can't take ourselves too seriously.

And even though those community meetings would get hot, there

were some heavy conversations.

we would always try and find, you know, we'd get together afterwards.

Grab a beer, download, debrief, and still try and find the light moments.

And there were certainly some where, they, they were worth a, a laugh or two.

So I think, as much as the hard work's hopefully been a hallmark, it's also been

a spirit of always having fun doing this.

'cause you gotta have a great time.

So that's been important too.

Well, when you have a chance to, to do it with people like Don, and the circle that

he drew together with Miss Don every day.

Right.

But, you know, you're a fellow Hall of Fame member, you know,

along with a guy at this point.

So, but I don't know.

I think, I mean, I'm not gonna put myself out there as.

Having been through the ringer as much as you or you know, lots of

other people in our movement, but I think I also am keyed into when the

lift is really, really heavy, but.

It's just a privilege and a joy.

'cause like you can see the stuff coming together and then there's the heavy

lift that burns, that just burns, you know, and, you know, you're, you're, you

know, threatening your own fuse here.

and it just seems as though since CO since George Floyd, there

have been those moments where I think a lot of charter school.

Leaders, a lot of charter folk have just seen that, that heavy lift.

Yeah.

Turn from something that just gave them greater meaning and actually

filled them with new things to something that just simply burned.

but now, I don't know.

I feel like we're kind of like.

Coming through on the other side of this thing.

I agreed.

And I just, I don't, I'm not having the same conversations I

had with people three years ago.

Yeah.

I've got people, you know, your age that, you know, have retired and I'm like,

no, we're gonna get these people back.

But, just talk to me about, you know, what to, how, how to.

What is the work that sustains us?

And then how do we get through the work that's just so ridiculously challenging,

that we shouldn't have to put up with it.

But unfortunately we do have to.

Well, I mean, I agree.

I do think we are kind of coming out of the like dark fog that we were all sort

of like wandering around in for a while.

that's been motivating for me.

I think it's been.

Motivating for the school leaders I've talked to, you

know, I'm on the board of YES Prep.

Prep now.

So, it was awesome to be able to see, you know, the incredible data

that the team there, and the kids, their outcomes this past school year.

And it felt like a big, big, change from the prior years after COVID.

So, I know that's one example.

That's the one I'm closest to, so it's one I mentioned, but, you know,

you put something recently, I think it was the last charter folk, email

out about the Tennessee data and just how strong it was post COVID.

So

little like data points, around the country that shows.

Okay.

We're, we are, I mean, I know we talked about Swaggers such

kind of a setup for this.

It does feel like we're starting to get our swagger back and it's awesome and

it's motivating and I think that's what.

You know, is that fuel that, gets people that it might have been

feeling down and out and kind of in survival mode during COVID to,

okay, it's time to thrive now.

And it looks like people are doing that.

Well, Bob,

by rights, I probably would've reached out to you for this interview no matter what.

but when I was there at the conference and there was the gathering and all

of the inductees had a chance to speak to a real large audience there.

Your comments about swagger, I was like, that's mohi.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

If there's anything I could want, you know, for our, our movement right now, it

would be that we could have had thousands more people in there, a little bit quieter

so we could hear every word, but just, just share, you know, what was, for those

that weren't there, or for those that couldn't hear everything, what was, what

is the swagger concept you're talking about and why did it occur to you and, and

what do you think its implications are?

Sure.

I think it comes back to, high expectations and excellence.

I mean, you know, we've been around long enough.

We, we were there when the, when the sector started and, you know, and

I said this that night, in Orlando, you know, charters weren't started

to be slightly better than the traditional public school district.

Yeah.

the goal in North Star has always been to be way better.

Than the, the neighboring school and to be, you know, kind of a proof point

in the community for kids and families.

And it felt like, and what I was, you know, worried about, but maybe less

worried about now was that, I mean, COVID was a punch to everybody's face.

I mean, we were all, I mean, and you know, I also feel like I should say I

wasn't leading schools during that time.

So it's easy to kind of like, you know, Monday morning

quarterback from the cheap seats.

I know that it was how hard it was for leaders, and it, it felt like we kind

of lost our way a little bit on this idea of excellence because I think it's

hard to aspire to excellence when you're just trying to like, get by every day.

You're just, you're in, you're in survival mode.

and I think people were in survival mode and we were kind of on our

heels in a defensive posture.

And I think my point that night was.

It's time to get back to our roots of outcomes for kids.

Excellence being a proof point, for kids and families in, in a, in

a neighborhood where maybe there, there aren't a ton of great options.

And I do think, since that night, I'm more optimistic too.

I think, one, the conversations, I don't know if you picked up on this,

but I felt like at the conference there were a lot more conversations about,

We gotta get back to high expectations.

We gotta get back to excellence, you know?

Sure.

We can learn some lessons from, some people like to throw rocks

at no excuses schools version 1.0 and, I think some of that's fair.

I think some of it was overblown, but, but there was no doubt that like combining

high expectations with support and.

The right balance of tough and love.

I mean that works and it did work.

And so I think like getting, getting back to some of that, which it felt

like more people were willing to have those conversations and then.

you know, just some of the data points we talked about.

I mean, when you're seeing elementary charter schools in

Tennessee where kids are getting 174 additional days of learning, that's

almost like a whole school year.

I mean, so isn't, I can't think of a better example of

like, yeah, we're definitely starting to get our swagger back.

So, I, but yeah, I think the bottom line for me is it's about excellence for kids.

It's, it's about what we expect from our kids.

They can do it, we should expect it, we should support 'em.

and just having that be kind of.

Getting back to the days where that's our North Star.

Well, I think that charter folk exists because, I mean, Kevin Hall from

Charter School Growth Fund in that, in that first year after I was outta

CSA, gave me a travel grant and I got to go to between 30 and 35 states.

I had to stop traveling 'cause COVID hit.

but it was that, that, that tour.

I had a chance to talk to charter school people in all sorts of different

settings where I came away from it just feeling as though we had lost

a sense of confidence that we were even on the right side of history.

that there was something maybe questionable about us.

were we a part of some big plot?

Were we all, some Trumpian, you know, sideshow?

What, what?

That's when I was just like, okay, we gotta try to do, we gotta

invest more in our own people.

You know, charter, charter folk are ultimately gonna determine whether or not

the movement proves successful or not.

and yet there's a, there's a difference too between swagger and kind of hubris.

'cause I think there are moments when we've been excessively cocky or we

thought it was gonna be easier than it was or whatever it might have been.

So can, can you parse out a little bit more about.

What's the difference between swagger and what is a kind of cockiness that,

you know, hopefully we've outgrown?

Yeah, that's a great question.

I think of it as more as, thriving, not as arrogance.

it's just, it's not, it's, it's getting, it's, it's moving past

survival mode where you're just trying to get through the day to, having

bigger aspirations for ourselves.

And our kids and our families, which I don't think's arrogant.

I think it's what they deserve.

and so I see it much more as a mindset of, of thriving and less a mindset of hubris.

And, and I agree.

I mean, you could hear and, and I heard, similar conversations, you know, we're,

and, and I felt like, and, and maybe you felt this way too, but as someone

that, It's kind of been around this for a long time, really since the beginning.

Just, you know, trying to help people understand the history of

what it was we were all trying to do.

Yeah.

The no excuses wasn't about being, you know, unnecessarily harsh on kids.

It was about not letting ourselves off the hook as adults because we

were gonna make excuses for why our kids couldn't do the work.

It was about high expectations, supporting our kids, the right

balance of tough and love.

And, you know, did some people maybe go too far with some of that?

maybe.

but it was always coming out of a spirit of love, good intentions.

And so I just think opportunities to have those conversations just to kind

of like set the record straight a little bit and make sure that the wrong

narratives aren't taking root when you know, nobody I knew and nobody, I'm still

not doing this, is doing this because.

They wake up every morning looking in the mirror saying, I want to be,

you know, terrible to kids today.

I mean, it's right.

It's the best of intentions.

And, and so, and again, I think we've kind of like moved through some of that

and the, the tone of the conversations, at least the ones I've, I've been having

more recently seem to be a lot different.

And, it's got me really optimistic about the future.

Yeah, I think there's something, a combination of.

Knowing that we're on the right side of history, that, you know, as you know,

Howard Fuller teaches us another of your, you know, fellow Hall of Fame, inductees.

This is about excellence and, and equity.

and we gotta deliver on both of them.

Yeah.

and having that sense of confidence.

There's something fundamentally not fair about the way our public education system

works and having a sense of confidence that while we have all sorts of problems,

we have something very profound to offer.

Yeah.

At the same time that we know.

That our schools are actually doing a great job with kids.

Mm-hmm.

You put those two things together and you can bring the swagger to it.

I think, I actually think that, you know, the more that we're aware of

the fact that we have made mistakes in the past, I, it makes us stronger.

I think that, I mean, what one of my favorite introductions to any book is

Taylor Branches, party of the Waters.

Love that book, love that book, and in that in introduction, he

talks about the United States.

Perhaps its greatest.

Strength was, it's, it's self-correcting nature.

Mm-hmm.

we've made all these mistakes and somehow or another we find a way to correct.

And I just have come back to that again and again, you know,

charter school movement, it's one of those things that's pretty

self-correcting as well.

I totally agree.

I mean, I think, when you think about, you know, this idea of learning

organizations, I think that's the hallmark of, of our best schools and

our best operators who, yeah, they.

They hit some resistance, some adversity, learn from it, are quick to implement the,

the changes and the new things they need to do as a result of what they learned.

And then they start getting after it again so the kids can excel.

And I think, I think that's what we're, I think we're starting to see that.

I think that's always probably been happening since COVID, maybe

it was just, you know, happening inside classrooms in school.

So, you know, someone like me may not have seen it as much, but it feels like now,

We're starting to bear the fruit from some of that.

Yeah.

yeah, it's like I'm just, couldn't be more optimistic, like I said, so.

can't wait for more data to come out.

I know in Texas they're gonna release the, the report cards later this month.

I think we're kind of hitting that season where a lot of this data that may have

been maybe have been embargoed for schools is now gonna start being made public.

So I'm hoping it's just another flurry of, of good news stories.

And then, you know, the last thing I'd say in this swagger point, Jed,

is that, I think as, as part of this thriving and confidence is.

We weren't afraid to call out the system for what it was

doing to our kids and families.

Yeah.

And we, and we weren't.

And I feel like there was a point in time where like we kind of like were

crouching in the corner, like hoping nobody would see us and we weren't

vocally saying that what was happening.

In the neighborhoods where we were working with the kids that we cared

about was just flat out wrong.

And I hope that now that, you know, we start to like grab the moral high

ground again with, with our results and data, which it looks like it's

starting to happen, that we can parlay that into a little bit more

confidently calling out, calling out the inequities and calling out, just where,

where the system's failing our kids.

'cause it feels like we've, School leaders, we've gotten away from that.

Maybe that's because the associations have done a better job of it and they didn't.

They don't have to as much.

But I think that's also another important part of this idea of

swagger is we can't just like be great for our kids, which we need to be.

We also gotta, you know, shine a light when the other other

sides failing our students.

And I think that's important too,

in terms of what we've learned.

And you were there really early in Tennessee's intense investment anyway in

2011. Okay.

and.

I think I'm not, I think we would say that we're, we have greater

We're, we're, we're making greater progress.

I mean, can you use Tennessee as a lens for, you know, Hey,

how are we self-correcting here?

Why are we making more progress today than perhaps we were in the past?

Any any observations you would, you would share there?

Good question.

I mean, I think we've definitely learned, I mean, I think we learned.

some big lessons about out-of-state growth, how hard that is.

Mm-hmm.

how complicated it is to just kind of like set up shop in a brand

new state for the first time.

I think that, for a lot of the operators that were coming here during those

years, the standards and tests were harder than what they were used to.

so just, and now because, you know, folks have been here for almost

a decade, they've been able to kind of recalibrate, understand.

The accountability systems here and make sure that their kids are

ready for, for those assessments.

which kind of gets back to the learning we talked about just a second ago.

I think as the sector grows, it, it, the funder community here grows with it.

I mean, we're serving probably right around 45,000 kids now.

Tennessee, there's a million kids in the state ish, in public schools.

So.

and so, you know, a lot of people had no idea what a charter school was.

You know, how it worked.

And there's still probably too many people that don't know what one is.

But, as the sector grows, as the, you know, we get this awesome data,

like we just recently got, I think, as we get more, you know, just

bright spots and proof points of what's possible, and we have those.

And, not just, Nashville and Memphis, which is traditionally

where most of the charters were.

It's still the vast majority, but we've got those proof points in Knoxville.

We've got those proof points in Chattanooga.

So it's just, I think, because of that we've just, we're able to touch

more kids and families and make more people aware of what a school is and,

The kind of option that offers families.

I would, I'll offer the following.

I don't know if you would agree with this or not.

I've often said there was this thing in Los Angeles, they called

it the broad plan, you know, where Eli Broad's Foundation was gonna,

like, support the growth of, you know, all these charter schools.

Gotta be extremely controversial and all that.

I remember that.

But, you know, I just said, I didn't li, the only thing

I didn't like about the plan.

Well, there are a lot of things I didn't like about it, but the

thing I didn't like about it the most was the pronunciation Brode.

Should have been broad.

Mm. The broad thinking was to go to a small number of organizations

and those two or three, you know, we'll blow them out.

Mm-hmm.

Where my experience in Los Angeles and in California was, there were so many great

organizations, and now there were some that were definitely underperforming.

It.

We should be calling for their closure and you know, we did that at CSA and all

that stuff, but the broader, the bet.

The broader the bet, that's when you unleash something.

Yeah.

And so I was to compare, now in Tennessee, we just have a, a, a broader bet

happening going from, from Chattanooga going into other parts of the state.

Hey, the sectors themselves in Memphis and in and in Nashville

have matured and across all of them.

We're seeing them move and it's when that collective, that's, that's

why charter folk and so many people doing this really, really matters.

I see you nodding your head, but I don't know, would you offer any nuance to this?

Or, or also I totally

agree.

I mean, I think of, you know, when I think of a healthy sector in a city, I

think that, you know, there's probably like two or three, what I would call

kind of anchor operators who are serving maybe 30 ish percent of the kids.

Then you've got, you know, filled in with some single sites who are, you

know, just offering very, unique models.

And when I think about, I mean, Nashville's a great example of this.

You've got, KIPP lead, valor, rocket ships, you know, serving like across

the, The four or five of them, probably 34 to 40% of the kids in the city.

But then you've got just incredible single site operators like, you

know Legger at Purpose Prep.

Yep.

You've got Charlie at Nashville Classical who's got two schools now.

Yep.

You've got Aventura, which is, you know, a, Spanish immersion project

based K through eight school.

There's a Tennessee Nature Academy.

There's like all these different types of options and, but you've also got your kids

and your Ballards who are just doing like.

Really awesome, you know, college prep work.

So I agree.

We can't just point to like the two or three leaders and trot them out

and say, this is the charter sector.

'cause it's, it's much broader than that, in terms of who's leading, what their

backgrounds are, the types of schools.

And so, yeah, I think Nashville is just such a great example in Tennessee

of what you're talking about.

So, and if we just broaden the circle beyond Nashville to the whole state,

well then we have to recognize El Waffer from Chattanooga joins you as an

inductee in the Hall of Fame this year.

Right.

Was in the

house that night, Jed,

that was cool.

It was really cool.

alright, well let's focus a little bit.

it wouldn't be, you know, CharterFolk if I didn't

put my thumb on the scale to talk a little bit about advocacy here,

but I feel like the Tennessee story.

And I don't wanna disparage any actions of the past.

Mm-hmm.

I think everybody has been, just making incredible efforts.

and yet I think in, we would probably summarize that our

advocacy wasn't as strong as we would need it to be in Tennessee.

but right now with, you know, Tennessee is for success, you know, with David

Montessori there at SCORE and with Elizabeth five Ash now leading the center.

I think we have the best advocacy in Tennessee that we've ever had, you

know, and also you've been a key person as a board member there and all of that.

could you summarize anything that you think we might have learned

about building effective advocacy?

well, I mean, I agree that, in this last session I think is evidence of that.

I mean, we just had an incredible session.

We made wins.

Facility funding, authorizing, which if you ask most operators here, what are

the two biggest barriers, they would point to one or both of those things.

so, yeah, it was a, it was a incredible session and I think, the, the big

lesson I would say, I mean, of course leadership always matters, but, Is the

power of coalition building, and having a group of, you know, organizations with

some overlapping interests, but also some areas that, they don't overlap.

Who have, you know, different priorities all coming together on

this, this issue in particular, working together incredibly well.

It, it really was an example, I think of one plus one equals three in

terms of the coalitions and, and you mentioned some of the key players.

I felt like this last session they have, they've never been more

coordinated and just closely linked and, they just worked really well

together and I think that's a big reason why we had such a great session.

Well, working effectively in a coalition is absolutely irreplaceable.

I also will, perhaps insufferably remind or assert that having a strong association

is not essential.

Well, that's where the center of Gravity was.

And so I think that's probably, I should have said this.

I think that's been another change is that, 'cause those

organizations always, you know.

Mostly played well together in, in the Sandbox, but I think they were more close

mo, more closely coordinated, sorry.

And, and the center, which is the state association, it really

was the center of gravity in a way that it hadn't been before.

Yeah.

which is probably why, the coalition works so well together.

So no doubt.

I mean, what you're saying is absolutely right.

I think it's kind of a broad, broad thing as well, because if you look at the

center, it originally wasn't a membership association and it had just a few funders

on their board and, and those funders, they're probably gonna be watching

this and, Hey guys, I love you too.

You made amazing efforts.

Again, no disparaging of the past.

Mm-hmm.

But it was not set up.

To really leverage, you know, the broad, the broad capacities of, of,

the Tennessee Charter school community and the center has further to go.

I mean, we need to get more members and all of that stuff, but I just think

we're seeing now in Tennessee for the first time, what can really happen when,

you know, a center comes together with an, with its members as an anchor, then

really working well with the likes of SCORE and Tennessee and for student

success, Tennessee can and all of that.

And I would throw in the parent groups.

I mean, propel.

Oh yeah.

I mean, they, they were up at the capitol.

You know, it's one thing to have the day on the hill, which I think is

important and good, but I also think it's easy when legislators know it's

just one day to kind of like politely nod their heads and kind of blow

you off and never talk to you again.

Well, we knew that wasn't gonna be enough.

We needed to do that, but, and we did, but we had parents and, and really propel,

and, and Lyft had parents up there.

yeah.

On a weekly basis, you know, so it wasn't just, I'm gonna

nod and never see you again.

It's, Hey, we're gonna talk about this issue right now and I'm gonna be back

here in two weeks to talk about it again and hold your feet to the fire.

And having, you know, Sonya Propel and, and Sarah at Memphis Lift

Yeah.

Part of the coalition.

I think, that, that was a huge difference maker too.

Well, let's shift a little bit to your role in, in Texas.

I think that, You know, T-P-C-S-A story in, in Texas is one of the

most important, advocacy success stories of the last decade.

It's resulted in us having this, you know, very strong leader Starly

at the, at the National Alliance.

there were all sorts of things that came together to take what had been an

organization that was an effective one.

But took it to whole other levels of, of impact.

and you know, my, my recurring mantra here is that our state associations are,

can be no stronger than our boards are.

And I find it weird as, as a movement, we've recognized that the weakness in our

boards at the CMO level and the school level has been an obsession of ours.

I mean, there are cottage industries of people that help with this,

law, firms that specialize in it, nonprofits that have been set up.

To do exactly that work.

And there's been essentially no investment in the governance

of, of our state associations.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, again, not disparaging the past, but the strength of the board.

Of the Texas Public Charter School Association and CSN, its C four

partner was way stronger five years after you got on that board than

you know when you started there.

And now you're on, on there as a board chair.

I mean, first of all, thank you.

Thank you.

I mean, just state, state association board chair and a great board member, I,

there's very few things you can do that have greater leverage, but what would

you, how would you summarize your learning experience across those five years?

and what could you share with others a encourage them to do what you're doing

right now, but also to do so with perhaps some, some acumen that they might not

have, you know, given, given what you've been able to to see in your years there.

Sure.

well, I think the first thing I'd say is that, serving on both boards,

the one in Texas and Tennessee at the association has probably been some of the

most rewarding board service I've done.

And if you would've asked me.

Five or six years ago heading into it.

I would not have guessed that.

So it's been

You made my month, Chris.

Thank you for that.

It's been incredible.

I would point to a few key things in, in Texas, I mean, first

of course was, hiring starley.

I mean, leadership is incredible and her leadership was transformational.

But I'll never forget, there was a conversation we were probably

about a year into, Her being the CEO and it was a board retreat.

And it was at that meeting where, there was some tension inside the organization

about, member services and advocacy.

And it was at that meeting where basically we were, the board was like, look, this

needs to be an advocacy org full stop.

And Starley was kind of like, thank you for saying that.

'cause that's what I've thought.

so we kind of like.

Took the shackles off and let her do her thing.

And so we just realized like being a great state association means winning in Austin.

That's period.

That's it.

And and the member services stuff, there's other nonprofits that can fill those gaps.

That's not something that the Association, association can be

be, you know, best in class at.

And so that sort of strategic shift was massive.

And then once we made that shift, we just like did the work to kind of.

You know, operationalize that.

I think, and this is something that I would not have known five years ago, but

just the power of the C four in the pack.

Yeah.

And, and what that's meant.

and so when you can couple that with some sort of campaign around, reaching out

to, you know, registering even, Charlie Charter affiliated, whether it's teachers,

parents, like that just creates a, like virtuous cycle that's pretty unmatched.

And, I would say we went from an organization that didn't really

matter in Austin when it came LED session time to one of the most

feared and respected in the state.

And what I, the other thing I've learned in politics is that if you're

not feared, you're not respected.

And.

Their, this association's feared and respected and we, we, we were

never sitting at the big kid table.

you know, or at the adult table.

We were at the kid table.

Yeah.

And so we we're sitting at the adult table now with the governor, with the

lieutenant governor, with the speaker, and with the people that matter.

And, it, it makes being the board chair fun and pretty easy

job because the staff's so good.

So I'd say focus on advocacy over membership services, C fours, pacs.

How important they are.

that those three things have been, I think, key, key milestones

in the evolution of, of the, of the association in Texas.

this will be a, a da a dicey question to include in this one,

but here's my question for you.

I think that the Texas Public Charter School Association,

association and CSN were primary Republicans who weren't supportive

before the governor began Primary.

Where do you think the governor learned, what, what he might

be able to get done here?

You're right, Jed.

I mean, I think, you know, in that same conversation where we were, where we

were talking about just this tension between advocacy and member services,

we talked about how we're, we're not gonna be feared and respected unless

we make some examples of people.

And, and that was, gosh.

I can't remember the year, but that was pretty early on in starling's tenure.

And and they did, and you're right.

I mean, and I think when we, when we kind of like primaried and won

the first couple races, that's when people were kind of like, wait, this

is not my grandfather's association.

This is new.

and so, and it was kind of like off to the races from there.

you know, Ryan Hector, who was on the team was kind of, yeah.

The brains behind a lot of this and was, you know, phenomenal.

I think he's doing some work with Scarley now.

not at, you know, at the federal level.

but it was just, you know, her ability to kind of find some, again, it is what

we all know, leadership, building a great team, you know, being goals focused.

A board that kind of like kept people focused.

I mean, I remember you and I having like.

You know, our dozen, dozen conversation about the dashboard and finally we got

it and had something to like, you know, hold, hold the team accountable to.

And you know, everything just kind of started working from there.

And it was, it was really fun to be a part of it.

Yeah.

Well, I know I'm insufferable, on, on no way man.

Persistence

matters,

but hey, I'm gonna say I think the Texas PU Charter School Association.

Had the best dashboard in the country.

Yeah.

and you might be

the best state association in the country.

Right,

right.

No, it's did amazing, amazing stuff.

And you know, when you say that your experience over the last five

years has been, some, some, some of the work that you've done on state

association boards is some of the most, meaningful that you've done.

I mean, this music to my ears because it just allows me to say with greater

confidence, Hey, if you're not on the board of your state association, but

you're a great leader and you've got swagger and you're doing great with kids.

Come get on these boards and you can make a difference.

And by the way, we've learned enough about what the work of these

organizations is, as is expressed by their dashboards, you know, such that

you can come on and become a great board member in probably six months,

whereas a few, you know, a decade ago, it would've taken you three or four years.

To start to understand this stuff and, you know, you have helped build an example at

Texas that, everybody's learning from you.

Thank you for being on the board chair.

You know, I'm gonna try and, you know, send you invites.

Hey, can these people come and invite your, attend your board meetings?

Can these two or three people, these three, or every

time you guys get together?

When I was invited, I learned so much and I think others would as well.

And you've been stewarding that.

I mean, Elizabeth that, the Tennessee Association and Jamie

Simmons who chairs that board, they came to our last board meeting.

I I gave them the, you know, the pre-read materials just so they

can see the quality of what, the board gets before the meeting.

And, I think, being able to spread that love and have

other people benefit from that.

I mean, the work that Natalie and the team are doing there is phenomenal.

Starling was absolutely the right leader at the right time,

to kind of like make the pivot.

I think Natalie's absolutely the right leader now and the fact we've gotten

this like incredible too for, Starly working federally to do great work there.

And now, Natalie in Texas, I mean.

It's, it's worked out better than anyone could have imagined.

Well, after Starley was identified or after she would had been hired and

all that, we saw each other for the first time and we, we happened to be

like, on opposite sides of a room.

and we ended up crossing to each other.

And literally, Chris, I mean, I said Starly.

What am I gonna say to you?

And she said, you're gonna tell me that I need a dashboard.

And so, you know, and she's off to the, you know, because she understands the

work at whole other levels, you know, that's why she's just poised to be.

an incredible leader for us, at the national level.

Alright, let's, let's wrap this up and like, just let's look to the future here.

what do you, I mean the swagger stuff certainly, you know, implies

what you're thinking about for, but hey, you're, you're, you're 55 years

old, you know, Don, Don, you know.

Did it to 79 and you know, if an illness hadn't, you know, caught him,

he probably would've done it to 99.

I think we have too many of our people, you know, that have left at the

age of 55 and we want them to come back.

If there's anything, you know, I would just say is, Hey barbecue, you

have made a lifetime's worth of, of contributions, you know, by the age of

55, but we're now expecting, you know, another, a big chunk of time outta you.

I mean, what do you do next?

Well, thanks for saying that, You know, I mean, I love my work at City

Fund right now, so, I feel like, you know, I wanna stay here as long

as it'll have me, because, you know, it's this great mix of, I feel like,

I feel like I'm at this age now.

You know, my wife and I were talking about this recently, where, you kind of

reached this point where you just wanna like, give everything you know away.

I mean, when you're like.

Striving and in your thirties and forties, you know, you're trying

to compete, you know, sometimes you like hold things close to the vest,

like I'm way past that point now.

So just being able to like, work with younger, you know, leaders, newer

leaders, mentor them, just share with them like the, the wins, but more

importantly, all the things I screwed up.

I, man, I could do that till forever.

I mean, I just love, I love doing it and there's so many great people.

This next generation leader is doing this work.

and this job affords me the opportunity to do some of that.

I get to serve on boards like we talked about.

that feels like a, a pretty high leverage spot.

so, I'm just trying to, you know, give away as much as I can, whether

it's knowledge or, our resources at City Fund to help local leaders,

you know, create more great schools.

it's super rewarding work and, I, man, if this is, if this is the last chapter,

it's, it's, it feels like a pretty privileged one and, a huge opportunity.

So, really, really, really grateful for that too.

Sounds like a great platform from which to be a swagger ambassador.

Exactly.

and, yeah, just kind of like, yeah, maybe the Johnny Apple see the swagger.

I can just kind of like one school leader at a time.

and, I've been trying to do that.

I think, you know, the seeds are starting to take root like we talked

about, so I'll, I'll be excited when we have a forest of, of swagger and trees.

All across the country.

So, that's what I'm looking forward to doing.

Well, I don't wanna be too obsequious here.

I, Starley said in, in our recent chat that, she believed that there had

never been as much alignment between the funders and our advocates about

what we need to do, what the structure is, that, that we have right now.

And, and I think City Fund.

Is a very key part of this.

I mean, you know, you know, I give you guys a hard time on stuff and,

and sometimes people tell me, cool it, man, you're like, but I'm

gonna keep being insufferable.

But in the macro, in the macro, the, the risk for funders, or for funding,

you know, funding organizations is that they, they move from swagger into hubris.

And there's just something about, I mean, Reed's been doing this for so long.

I don't know if you listened to John Arnold, you know, on the recent

podcast when he was on, when he was on with Tyler Cowen and he was also on

with, what was he on with Peter Atia?

I don't know.

But you know, when he is talking about the education work.

It's, there's just no hubris there.

Right.

You know, it's, this is hard.

This is difficult.

we're making a difference.

We wish we could make a, a, a difference even faster than

we're, than we're going right now.

But we're staying this course.

We're staying this course, and there have been so many others in the landscape.

That have just like Johnny come lately, they come and they go, right?

Mm-hmm.

and it seems as though both for yourself, you know, and the, and the organization

you're now working in, you have a chance to just stay focused and, and grow impact,

with that tone of swagger you're talking

about.

Well, you're right, and we're, we're fortunate to be able to do that.

I mean, we we're definitely playing the long game.

Our board allows us to play the long game.

They're committed to the long game.

When you're playing the long game, I think it just gives you a space to build

different, more trusting relationships with the people that you're working with.

which in the end of the day, I think leads to a better chance for better results.

And so, it's, and we're lucky to have board members like Reed and John who,

afford us the opportunities to do that.

So, yeah, man, I feel like I'm kind of in the catbird seat in this, spot

I'm in right now, and I just want to.

Use it to do as much, good work and have as much of an impact as I can.

That's awesome.

Well, until playing the long game.

If we're, if we are actually a movement, and we're gonna sustain the work over

multiple generations, then we've gotta do a great job of, of celebrating those

that went first and having a great hall of fame and those kinds of things.

So, you're, you're serving as that example for so many of us now, and, I

just don't wanna let you off the hook.

Yeah.

Even an incredible example.

But, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if you might look back and

say the next decade is as high of impact as you've had anywhere else

in, in your, in your, your career.

And, you know, just beat on me, merciless mercilessly, if there's something that I

can do to be helping you or you see, you know, where CharterFolk and my work can,

can align with, with a swagger agenda.

Because, I really think you put your, your, your finger

on something important here.

Gosh, Ted, I hope you're right.

I mean, there is gonna be, I think, tons of disruption in our world the next

decade, which, you know, we both know, Indus in disruption lies opportunity.

I think there's lots of opportunity.

our kids deserve it now they're counting on us.

So, I hope, you know, we can do one of these 10 years from now, and talk

about all the kickass schools that have gotten started in the last 10 years.

So I can't wait.

All.

That's great.

Well, Chris, thanks again for spending this time.

Congratulations again.

It couldn't be earth for you.

Appreciate it.

Thanks for having me.

Take care.

Bye.